soundjata
hole in cheese
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(hard?) deity Winnie
- Thread starter soundjata
- Start date
![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
Tech and war situation looks so good that despite your own position is a bit underwhelming, as a whole you are approaching auto-win again. Agree with paci, cuirs, the usual of course. I'm not sure if I like bulbing MC though. I don't like forges very much due to their massive price, especially when you have good use for 
anyway (fail gold). I think trade mission leads simply to a faster attack date and the lack of forges at that point makes no real difference.
anyway (fail gold). I think trade mission leads simply to a faster attack date and the lack of forges at that point makes no real difference.This is probably a good option in soundjata's game, too.
Gwaja
King
Ouch this map is not so friendly. Lots of dry, brown tiles with little resources. I will go ahead and save it to my collection of maps.
soundjata
hole in cheese
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I went the Forge way. (Also a fan. Got to have those precious +25% )
Got Colossus and some nice failgold from Parthenon.
The lack of trade routes and the impossibility to trade for Currency is bad for the eco.
It did not come to my mind that I could have traded for Alpha and bulbed Currency instead of MC.
Situation at T132
)Got Colossus and some nice failgold from Parthenon.
The lack of trade routes and the impossibility to trade for Currency is bad for the eco.
It did not come to my mind that I could have traded for Alpha and bulbed Currency instead of MC.
Situation at T132
Spoiler :
.
soundjata
hole in cheese
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@drewisfat could you confirm your GLH date and Tech order?
Did you skip the workboat in London ?
I tried Agri > AH > Sailing > Masonry > BW > TW with mitigated results (T66 GLH, 3 cities, 4 workers and 2 settlers. almost Strike.)
Did you skip the workboat in London ?
I tried Agri > AH > Sailing > Masonry > BW > TW with mitigated results (T66 GLH, 3 cities, 4 workers and 2 settlers. almost Strike.)
Your strategy was a bit all over the place and that is one thing deity does not forgive. You don't go forges because "well that +25% is good", it needs to be better than every possible alternative. I understand that you wanted to expand peacefully since you could, that's a good change in plans. Not keeping immediate neighbor happy is a massive blunder of course, that's the only way to lose a game with GLH and +10 coastal cities.
edit: on forges - for them to break even you need to whip 120/7,5=16pop. For me it's clear that for cuir attacks, in general you shouldn't go for (non-IND) forges in cities that are generating only via whip. It's a bit different for cities with say 12 natural . It's much better to just grow to make better use of the golden age.
is good", it needs to be better than every possible alternative. I understand that you wanted to expand peacefully since you could, that's a good change in plans. Not keeping immediate neighbor happy is a massive blunder of course, that's the only way to lose a game with GLH and +10 coastal cities.edit: on forges - for them to break even you need to whip 120/7,5=16pop. For me it's clear that for cuir attacks, in general you shouldn't go for (non-IND) forges in cities that are generating
only via whip. It's a bit different for cities with say 12 natural . It's much better to just grow to make better use of the golden age.
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Well, of course it's never that clear-cut.
1. Yes you can pre-build HAs, but mostly what you can do is grow on coast.
2. You ignore that if you don't whip forges, you have more pop, so you get those small yields anyway, just earlier (say 2
2
coast).
3.
is a real argument. Depends on the actual position whether that matters a lot or not.
Again, I'm assuming an efficient cuirassier-strategy. If you attack at rifling there is a lot more time to build buildings.
1. Yes you can pre-build HAs, but mostly what you can do is grow on coast.
2. You ignore that if you don't whip forges, you have more pop, so you get those small yields anyway, just earlier (say 2
2 coast).3.
is a real argument. Depends on the actual position whether that matters a lot or not.Again, I'm assuming an efficient cuirassier-strategy. If you attack at rifling there is a lot more time to build buildings.
Gwaja
King
Forges are awesome, even better as Musa. But I always wondered how often do people self tech Metal Casting? And I mean no Oracle free tech.
In general, MC gives very little in my opinion. It's not on the path to anything good (well, optics if isolated). At least it has trade value, but also techs on the better path (aesth, music, CoL, philo) have great trade value.
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Probably the best MC offers.Triremes are the big thing on some Iso maps, or on any with barb galley pests
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Forges are always up for debate yup, was especially like that in sgotm games.
High cities all want them (if not settled too late) for Cuirs, so likely to have / trade for gems, gold or silver.
But often it's difficult when to get them, whipping off those Rep scientists especially.
High
cities all want them (if not settled too late) for Cuirs, so likely to have / trade for gems, gold or silver.But often it's difficult when to get them, whipping off those Rep scientists especially.
I think for a typical cuirassier plays, forges might not be useless, but they are at least inconsequential. You shouldn't try to acquire MC just to build forges. You definitely don't NEED them to whip cuirs. -wise it's not even breaking even after five 3-pop whips, so you better have them shiny metals to get some value from that building.
-wise it's not even breaking even after five 3-pop whips, so you better have them shiny metals to get some value from that building.
Gwaja
King
It always seemed as though Metal Casting is a lot harder to utilize as trade bait as Sampsa put it. Barbarian galleys are annoying, but then I wonder how often did I just ignore them? Did I tell myself I must crank out Triremes ASAP? Seeing my hard built Trirme sink to a Barbarian Galley makes a lot of nasty foul words come out of my mouth all too often I tell you. ^_^
Even on deity, I don't think barb galleys should be a massive issue. You can spawn bust with warriors. Two galleys can handle one barb galley with near 100% success. Yeah triremes are better, but are you seriously getting MC for that...
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Good to see you Gwaja, MC has good trade value imo.
AIs like going to Machinery, Engineering etc. but an early MC usually gets all needed techs without putting any beakers into them.
But it's expensive and there are often better options
Astro beelines are different.
Here Triremes might allow settling seafood spots (if as Sampsa mentioned spawn busting was too hard).
Or a forge might replace Monarchy (annoying but often needed tech in Iso) with a shiny resource, if the new happy cap just works out.
AIs like going to Machinery, Engineering etc. but an early MC usually gets all needed techs without putting any beakers into them.
But it's expensive and there are often better options
Astro beelines are different.
Here Triremes might allow settling seafood spots (if as Sampsa mentioned spawn busting was too hard).
Or a forge might replace Monarchy (annoying but often needed tech in Iso) with a shiny resource, if the new happy cap just works out.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
I think for a typical cuirassier plays, forges might not be useless, but they are at least inconsequential. You shouldn't try to acquire MC just to build forges. You definitely don't NEED them to whip cuirs.
Cities with high food surplus should get them, slow cities are better off without them, naturally, but for me it is not just hammer reduction the forges give but also the burst mode they allow you if you have any of the happy metals. Even if you start with 2 extra pop by not building the forge, you end up in a problem very quickly as you need to grow into unhappiness if you are whipping hard (as you should). Needing to grow to +2 or +3 unhappy people slows down growth and whipping additionaly. And then you face a bit extra resistance and lose more units, which slows you even further. There is a negative snowball at play here. Attacking or reinforcing 1-2T slower can totally change the course of the war. As we can also see IRL lately. Actually the best parallel for the gamers who played any Team Fortress, Overwatch, MOBA is burst mode against heal. You should never sprinkle damage and allow opponent to heal. Or if you are villain, just kill the Bond instead of talking to him until he escapes.
Totally agree. Very active spawnbusting and 2 galleys are more than enough almost always. I would dare to say that you don't need to deal with distant galleys at all. They have limited vision (7 tiles I think). So, extending land spawnbusters farther out and keeping galleys near inner city valuables is sufficient. And defend with 2 galleys as they get 10% bonus which translates to 60-ish% winning odds, iIrc.
Interesting comments. If I understand correctly, we agree that without
-metals forges are not good. There are a few things I don't understand. Why do you say "2 extra pop by not building the forge"? We know it's a 4-pop whip. You can 2-pop whip HAs (intending to upgrade) and let HR take care of happiness. Cold fact is what I said earlier - you need to whip 16 pop for a forge to break even -wise. We definitely agree with the snowball effect, but I think it's to the opposite direction.One explanation is that you didn't have upgrades in mind, rather go with no GMs in which case forges make much more sense.
