House Votes to Repeal Obamacare

E: Death Panels (I don't really believe this will happen intentionally, but some people will be accidentally left to die. See the woman in England who died because of something simple.)
Are we talking about the same type of death people get when they have no access to healthcare?

Also, I counter your unsubstantiated claim of a woman in England with an unsubstantiated claim of a woman in New Orleans dying because she couldn't afford to get a doctor to check up on what turned out to be her cancer.
 
@Ajidica- Duh. WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE THEN THEY DO!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Um. You fail maths forever. That's a rate, a percentage of national income, not an absolute value. Every country on that list is directly comparable, and there's absolutely no correlation anywhere on that list with population. Check out the relative positions of Ireland and New Zealand and Luxembourg vs France and Turkey and the United Kingdom.

Do you seriously not understand how percentages work?
 
The House can try all they might, but it will be torn to shreds by the Senate and given the veto stamp by Obama :D.

CivG, you understand that:

1. The Republicans don't really want to repeal healthcare, and that

2. The healthcare bill as it stands is a pile of crap that strengthens big insurance, the very guys the bill was SUPPOSED to weaken.

If anything, we should be encouraging Congress as a whole to get rid of it, but that would require Republicans genuinely wanting to do it and the Democrats understanding they'd have more luck with UHC if they got rid of it.

A common statistic cited is that the majority of Americans do not want universal healthcare. I think this isn't true; I think most Americans don't want THE BILL, which is very different. Many street Republicans dislike it for its mandates and or a perceived "government takeover" - more like private business takeover in reality - while many Democrats dislike it for entrenching the very enemy it was supposed to cripple.
 
A common statistic cited is that the majority of Americans do not want universal healthcare. I think this isn't true; I think most Americans don't want THE BILL, which is very different. Many street Republicans dislike it for its mandates and or a perceived "government takeover" - more like private business takeover in reality - while many Democrats dislike it for entrenching the very enemy it was supposed to cripple.

Results released Wednesday indicate Americans' views of the healthcare overhaul signed into law in 2010 and under debate this year in Congress, have changed little, with 45 percent saying the support the law and 50 percent saying they oppose it

. . .


Those who do not support the law are split nearly evenly among complete repeal, 33 percent; partial repeal, 35 percent; and a wait-and-see approach, 30 percent.

Another factor complicating the debate is that about a quarter of those who say they oppose the healthcare law indicated they believe the legislation didn't go far enough.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/01/19/Poll-Fix-dont-repeal-healthcare-law/UPI-75771295445325/
 
May I make a small point on costs and such?

Let's begin with an observation: The US should be paying more for health care than other countries. Health care is a normal good: as the average income of a country rises, so does its demand for health care. It is completely normal and expected that the average American would spend more on health care than the average German or Frenchman or Englishman. This is a point that is not stressed enough; even if the US had a 'socialized' healthcare system, spending per capita and spending as a fraction of GDP would not fall to the levels you see in Europe.

That's one side of the story. But there's a 'but' coming. And it's a big 'but'.

The US should be spending more on health care. It does, clearly. But the US is spending a whole lot more than would be expected, even taking into account wealth effects.

A picture:

I know this treads old ground, but it ought to be pointed out every now and again.

That leaves two important questions:
1) Why is the US spending so darn much on health care, even after taking into account the effects of being a richer nation?
2) Does the Affordable Care Act move the US downward on the graph -- closer to where we should be given our income level?

The first question is addressed nicely here, a ten-post series on excess cost in the American system. The second? I'm not sure, it's been a few months since I've dug into the specifics of the law. Perhaps I'll have an incentive to revisit the matter soon.
 
JerichoHill/Integral 2020

Principled Leadership for an Economically Wise America

If those two ran, I might actually be tempted to vote.

They could run under the CFC party?
 
Sure, lets waste Congress's time with useless posturing and pretend that they are accomplishing something. :rolleyes:

That's pretty much been the Republican position for the last two years and will, no doubt, remain the Republican position for the next two years. Block everything, make sure nothing meaningful gets done, and then blame Obama & the Democrats for not accomplishing anything. Yes, people elect their representatives to supposedly conduct the public's business but most Americans are to lazy or stupid to know if they're doing their job or not either that or they just don't care so the Republican's do nothing tactics just might work again for them.
 
They really should be putting Washington DC in the front of these. The Legislative Branch is not stationed in Washington.
Yes, it is. It's stationed in the city of Washington. And since those lines usually indicate the city...
 
That leaves two important questions:
1) Why is the US spending so darn much on health care, even after taking into account the effects of being a richer nation?
2) Does the Affordable Care Act move the US downward on the graph -- closer to where we should be given our income level?

1) The reason is lots and lots of middlemen in the health care system taking a cut of the money but providing very little of value to actual sick people. There is also the massive problem of political corruption in the United States where special interest lobbies (like the drug lobby, or the insurance lobby, or any interest group with money) bribes members of Congress to get legislation which harms regular people but enriches the special interests. For example, the US government pays 4-8 times the market price for most medications because individual congressmen are bribed by drug companies. Regular tax payers on medicare don't seem to care because they get the drugs for free but the taxpayers are getting royally screwed just so politically connected drug companies can loot the public's money. All this corruption and middlemen taking cuts because the law says they have to get their cut drives up costs without improving care.

2) No. Unfortunately the bill passed was a special interest give away which doesn't do even one tiny thing to help bring down costs. It will increase access to health care by making everyone buy insurance and it will help some people pay for that insurance with public subsidies but the insurance companies will just raise rates even higher and there was absolutely nothing in the bill to help contain costs. The reason gets back to the massive political corruption in the US; insurance companies & drug companies lobbied with billions of dollars in bribes to politicians to make sure nothing got in the way of them extracting every last penny from sick people.
 
This thread is missing the most important part of the story! Did they end up changing 'job killing' to 'job destroying' or not?!?!?!?!?

They've worked out a compromise. It's now the "job-crushing" bill.

If those two ran, I might actually be tempted to vote.

They could run under the CFC party?

The first step in our glorious world conquest...
 
JerichoHill/Integral 2020

Principled Leadership for an Economically Wise America

(You have to sit out President Limbaugh's two terms. :mischief:)

While I would be eligible on age to be president, I don't think Integral would qualify on age to be VP. Besides, while the economy would be rocking, foreign policy would be awful as I would probably tell China off WWE-style (sigh).]

@Integral. Nice graph. I worry about the implied causal relationship given how cointegrated the two are, but there have been so many studies that show holding all sorts of stuff constant we spend far above what's expected on healthcare, and yes, we should be spending more per person than everyone else, especially since healthcare isn't just a normal good, its a supra-normal good. (yeah, I made that up)

One possible reason not mentioned often is that the difference is a US given world subsidy on healthcare development. We know that US pharma drives new drugs and can be very expensive here, but where property laws are weak we see knockoffs (though chemically the same) developed for a fraction of the price. There may be an unintended subsidy there, and if so, only having the world do a better job of patent protection (which is kind of against their own monetary interest) would help, not repealing ohmygosh Obamacare.

Also : Pre-existing Conditions:
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/02/preexisting-conditions.html
 
That's just another reason to vote for you, dude.
 
Spoiler :

Question time!
1. Which countries have 'socialized' medicine?
2. Which country spends the most on health care?
3. Analysis. Based on the data provided, what can you determine about 'socialized' medicine and cost?
Spoiler added.

I very much agree with you.
But for future reference: Please add to a list of arguments regarding that statistic, that next to all of those nations have an older population (i.e. more sickness to treat) than the US, particularly so nations with a long time low birth rate like Japan, Italy, Germany, Spain, Austria etc.
Fox News is not a valid source.
You might as well quote the bible or the menu of the chinese restaurant at the corner.
 
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