Immortalism

Good post Boot, that said I don't want to die, non-existence terrifies me. However the daily work to maintain a healthy body and mind (exercise, good habits, good relationships) is hard work and harder and harder with age.

I think people have a fantasy that some gene will be discovered that'll keep us forever 21 with no effort. I think that's extremely unlikely.

Those truly serious about life extension are taking dozens of supplements, have extremely restricted diets, probably do tons of yoga and meditate and don't party. Like I said, a lot of work. The longer you live the harder you'll have to work to maintain your life.
 
I cared about the issue before, but then I realized that 90% of everything is boring and the 10% of the good things is mostly those things executed really well, with few truly novel experiences. Tied increases in power will only make things more boring as more limitations are removed. Unless you are talking about re-jiggering our biology, in which case I'd elect for p-zombification most likely.
 
The only thing more ecologically destructive than a rich Westerner is an immortal rich Westerner, who would of course be immortal long before anyone else. Also, old ideas wouldn't die with the old farts but would just kind of stick around in near-perpetuity, as would dictators and so on. Further, this immortality wouldn't be real immortality: people would still die, it's just that death would literally always come in a shocking abrupt way like an accident rather than as an expected "well, we knew something would get him, he was 93 after all" type of event. And there would be no natural retirement age, limiting turnover while condemning people to work indefinitely until they had somehow accumulated enough to live on for an indefinite length of time. And so on, and so forth. Death is not a bug, it's a feature.

Personally, I want to die someday. I don't want to live forever as long as I have good physical health, I want to die after I've put in my time.
All good points. Still don't see this justifying a deadly sickness controlling your life and dishing out suffering like it was candy.
If one manages to stop seeing aging as "natural" and sees it as just another sickness instead - which IMO is the proper neutral understanding, at least a lot more so than "that's just part of life, dude" - then an argument for it becomes not only ridiculously hard, it also goes against much of what we consider "humane" this days.

Moreover, it would also empower the weaker members of society. An eternity to learn and organize. I think you will find such a population a lot harder to control.

The dynastic problem knows answers, too. They sound radical now, but maybe not so in an immortal future.

The bottom line is: If you think the aging-process has more upsides than downsides, you IMO managed to not see all the terrible crap it does to people on account of it being such an integral part of your understanding of life. And man it sucks when great suffering got no meaning.
 
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Once my work is done, plus some time with the family playing shuffle board on the Lido Deck of some likely amenity stuft cruise ship with a pink frothy rum drink sporting a parasol, I want off this troubled planet. I see no reason to be a burden to my family while I hang around through endless rainy Sundays bored out of my skull. Who would stay in prison past their parole fears the future, and I do not.

I sure will miss the family though, if given the chance. Guess they'll be along eventually. I wonder if it is the case that those on the other side are subject to time? If not, well we all might be there already.
 
If people don't die, the population will either have to be involuntarily limited (which is sort of worse than "involuntary death due to natural causes") or there should be some caste system where the plebs only get to be immortal if they kill enough other plebs. In the end, there can be only one- pleb.

Imo, we aren't really the kind of species that uses so much of its decades of life to do anything, so that immortality is a real need instead of a selfish and dubious wish. Moreover, even if (somehow, in theory not impossible, but who knows) immortality is achieved, you would still die from non-natural means. And it is not like there will be an absence of violence in a society that forces you to have set number of kids.
 
Those truly serious about life extension are taking dozens of supplements, have extremely restricted diets, probably do tons of yoga and meditate and don't party. Like I said, a lot of work. The longer you live the harder you'll have to work to maintain your life.

There are three components to life extension. The first is saving lives. No matter how many supplements you take, if your lifestyle is more destructive than constructive, then you're not saving any lives.

But the second component, taking care of one's own life, is a two-step process. Those people who're taking supplements, dreaming of immortality? They're hoping to make it long enough that the science comes to them. Firstly, though (as you implicitly note), this really has diminishing returns. It also helps no one else. But still, you need to live long enough to see the advances that you specifically need for yourself.

The 2nd step is speeding the arrival of the necessary advances. This too has diminishing returns, but we're nowhere near that part of the curve. If someone delays their Alzheimer's until 84, and the treatment arrives when they're 85, this is reasonably similar to getting it at 81 but the treatment arriving when you're 82. BUT, there are hundreds of thousands of people who also benefit from the treatment arriving 3 years early. Hundreds. Of. Thousands. But that requires that people invest in a way that's not intuitive. We're used to putting aside money to afford the best available treatments we need, when we need them. But we're not used to investing money so that the treatments that are available are the best ones possible.

As to people saying that we 'need' death. I take this personally. And not just for myself. You're looking me in the eye, and saying "I'm sorry, the best solution I can see to current problem X is that your mom dies after a decade of being decrepit and in poor health". That's a lack of imagination.
 
As to people saying that we 'need' death. I take this personally. And not just for myself. You're looking me in the eye, and saying "I'm sorry, the best solution I can see to current problem X is that your mom dies after a decade of being decrepit and in poor health". That's a lack of imagination.

There's a bit of a composition fallacy going on there. It would be wonderful if your mother could live for an extra half a century, but a societal catastrophe if everyone's mother could live for an extra half-century.
 
But still, in order for your society to degrade in already-known ways, my mom needs to die. The victims in this lack of imagination are composed of billions of individuals. There are many, many political outlooks that suggest that massive deaths are essential to the process. We usually deride them.
 
Look at it this way. The necessary science and technology is a nearly inevitable thing. There are enough people with enough wealth that it's going to happen eventually. It's mostly an information technology.

So, the delay of people trying to save lives vs. not save lives is how long? A century? So, in order to merely delay the difficult questions, (totally rough estimate) 5.5 billion people have to die after being decrepit? Is that really the best way to buy time for these questions? Overpopulation already exists. Involuntary unemployment already exists. Upward-trickling wealth and dynasties already exist. The advantage of Eric and Ivanka getting all of Trump's wealth so outshines Trump keeping it, that your loved ones - all of them - must die? We need those solutions already.
 
But still, in order for your society to degrade in already-known ways, my mom needs to die. The victims in this lack of imagination are composed of billions of individuals. There are many, many political outlooks that suggest that massive deaths are essential to the process. We usually deride them.

In order for some people you or x likes, to live forever, literally existent billions of people will have to be forced to a new kind of life they don't seem to want. Is that not a problem?

And just look at how greed and abuse of human by human is already in a ludicrous level despite those over-rich knowing they will die sometime in the future (or can only aspire to be bizarre like Walt Disney, who probably has died permanently already).
 
So, the delay of people trying to save lives vs. not save lives is how long? A century? So, in order to merely delay the difficult questions, (totally rough estimate) 5.5 billion people have to die after being decrepit? Is that really the best way to buy time for these questions? Overpopulation already exists. Involuntary unemployment already exists. Upward-trickling wealth and dynasties already exist. The advantage of Eric and Ivanka getting all of Trump's wealth so outshines Trump keeping it, that your loved ones - all of them - must die? We need those solutions already.

Hang on, you can't say that because these problems exist, it shouldn't bother us if they get worse. That way madness lies.
 
Hang on, you can't say that because these problems exist, it shouldn't bother us if they get worse. That way madness lies.

I'm not. I'm saying that there's a terrifically high price in order to buy the delay.

In order for some people you or x likes, to live forever, literally existent billions of people will have to be forced to a new kind of life they don't seem to want. Is that not a problem?

If people didn't want to live longer and healthier lives, why are the last six months of people's lives as expensive (medically) as the decade leading up to it? We already let the dying dictate the lifestyles of the healthy
 
I'm not. I'm saying that there's a terrifically high price in order to buy the delay.



If people didn't want to live longer and healthier lives, why are the last six months of people's lives as expensive (medically) as the decade leading up to it? We already let the dying dictate the lifestyles of the healthy

"Longer" currently means a few years. "Immortal" doesn't. Allowing some people to live a little "longer" obviously won't begin creating the chaotic situation that having immortals will. I think that you have become very attached to this issue, due to wanting your own parents to live forever. This- imo- clouds your logic. Ultimately i have to really doubt the majority of people would rather have some x loved ones live forever regardless of what this will cause for a vast number of both currently alive people and the rather nepotist and decadent future of our then "immortal" species. Material stuff get born, live, and die. Even Stars die.
 
So, it's not like we're going to snap our fingers and suddenly everyone is going to be immortal. It's going to present itself as ever-extending life-expectancy. The younger people will have a longer life-expectancy than those who are old. The poor will have a vastly longer life-expectancy than the poor of a decade earlier.

There is no logic here. It's an emotional issue. People don't want to suffer. The two ways of mitigating aging-relating suffering is to create memes that allow people to accept it. Or to lengthen the healthspan faster than you lengthen the lifespan.

The average Western Boomer woman has about a 1/6 chance of having Alzheimer's when she's 85. Now, a lot of the reason why that probability is so low is because there's a reasonable chance she'll die first. But if there was a serial killer playing Russian Roulette with Boomer women's frontal cortexes on a nightly basis, people wouldn't be like "oh, well, longer lifespans are bad anyway. plus, she was kinda wealthy and lived in an environmentally destructive way"
 
The quality of life would be great - you're thinking an order of magnitude too small for the size of a colony ship. Any society that is capable of building a colony ship could easily scale it up and definitely would want to for many reasons. They will have populations equivalent to large terrestrial cities and contain as much physical volume, industry, agriculture and entertainment as large cities if not more.

People can easily spend their entire lives inside the limits of Manhattan and never suffer for it.
Would it be a good guess that you've read Cities in Flight, by James Blish?

Why would you get bored? Or rather, how? An infinite life span means infinite possibilities. You'll be able to do anything you want with decent long-term planning. Eventually you'd be able to do anything you want even without planning as technology improves to the point where we will reach a Star Trek-like state of resource availability. Money will become obsolete - all we need is better across-the-board technology and we will erase scarcity.

We're already on the exponential curve of technological growth, the point of economic liberation I'm talking about probably isn't more than a century off in my estimation.
Why do kids get bored in a roomful of toys and a playground across the street? There are some nights when I sit here in front of my computer, Wikipedia just a couple of clicks away, I'm surrounded by books, fanzines, and DVDs, I have Netflix, and I just feel so bored that the only thing I can think of to do is either to read an Archie comic or go to bed. I've got over a thousand books in my personal library that I've never read, yet what I'm reading right now is a book I've read a dozen times already.

I'll admit that part of the problem is that I've had issues with clinical depression for many years. When it's really bad, I can barely muster interest in anything. If it weren't for the cats needing food, water, and litter box cleaning, there are some days that I wouldn't bother getting up. So there could be all of my favorite entertainments and activities right at my fingertips, and none of it would matter. I should think that anyone living on the ships or colonies you're imagining would have to be fully screened for such things as depression and other forms of mental illness. Hopefully by then a cure would be found for these things. Right now I wouldn't want an eternity of the sort of life as it is.

So with your moneyless society and infinite availability of stuff, how would the economy work? This is an argument that's ongoing regarding Star Trek. Picard lives in his myopic little starship Captain bubble where he can have anything he wants, so he doesn't really want anything other than to "better himself." But of course it never occurs to him that not everyone is like that. You can't tell me that Joe Sisko, or even Robert Picard give their goods and services away free - they have to be compensated for their food and wine somehow. And what if everyone on Earth decides they want to live on a humongous estate, instead of in apartments? There isn't room for everyone to do that, unless Earth has many billions fewer people in the 24th century. Picard is so used to the "no money" thing that when he and Ro Laren are posing as a client and prostitute in a bar on a border colony, she has to remind him that he's supposed to produce some coins and haggle for her fee.

Even in Kirk's time, there was money (I don't care what he said in the fourth movie; they might not use cash, but they damn well use money in some other form).

So how would unlimited stuff and infinite possibilities for activities work in a city-sized spaceship? Severely limiting population growth, or zero-growth, as in Bova's Saturn/Titan novels? If it's limited growth, you'd have people applying to have children, and who gets to decide if they're allowed, and what would the criteria be? For that matter, if everyone is immortal, why even bother having children? (interesting side note: in the TV series Highlander and Highlander: The Raven, the Immortals are all sterile, even before becoming immortal; none of them can father or bear children)

The ships will be massive. There really wouldn't be a single point of failure - the chance of one of them blowing up is about the same as NYC getting hit with an asteroid tomorrow. It's conceivable but highly unlikely.

As to boredom and lack of entertainment, again I point to NYC and ask if you really couldn't make a go of staying there forever? Because that's what a colony ship would be like. Only bigger, more advanced and with all the modern features.

Plus you guys act like it will be cut off from Earth. It never would be! It'd be in constant contact and though the time lag will get extreme, no colony ship would ever be truly isolated in every sense of the word.
Assuming people would want to go to NYC in the first place... I assume there would have been an immense change in society to eliminate crime, or you'd have street gangs and organized crime out in space. And please don't say that in a post-scarcity society there won't be any crime because people will have everything they could possibly need or want. It's human nature to test the rules and break them. Do it out in space and the result could mean a very nasty death for everyone.

Time lag... have a long enough time lag and you get problems. Who is in charge of these space cities? Are they completely autonomous, or just part of a central government? If the latter, I would say that C.J. Cherryh had it pegged when she said that the farther from Earth a colony or space station was, the less relevance Earth had in issuing orders and setting rules. That's a recipe for eventual rebellion and war.

I am of the opinion that given enough time, people can and do change. Given infinite life spans, people will have time to adjust to, accept and eventually become comfortable with all sorts of other people and ideologies. Take gay marriage acceptance - sure dying old people helped society progress but I personally know a lot of older folk that came to terms with it and even accepted it as a good thing just from being exposed to gay culture (if there is such a thing) over time. My own grandmother made such a transformation in the 4 years I lived with her.
Elderly people aren't part of a hive mind any more than any other age group. Take my grandmother and great-aunt, for instance. You know the phrase "raining like cats and dogs"? The rest of that saying is disgustingly racist by modern standards. Back in the '80s I explained to her that if she said that in public, people would be shocked and disgusted, and call her a racist. She didn't understand at first, but finally was able to eliminate that part of the saying from her vocabulary. I never heard my great-aunt say anything racist, ever. She was more old-fashioned than my grandmother in domestic matters, but she was also more enthusiastic at first about my then-new interest in science fiction. She gave me a Star Wars blanket and an astronaut-themed binder "for your outer space stories." (I still have those)

I do take my hat off to your optimism. Optimism is necessary for humans to survive and get off this planet. But human nature would have to undergo quite a change to make this scenario of yours possible.
 
One thing I've wondered is how immortality jives with our finite, time based punishments. Prison terms, club/organization/etc. bans, and on and on. Life terms are suddenly either incredibly cruel or pointless to implement. A 10 year sentence (jail or something more civil/private business/etc.) is suddenly a lot less meaningful.
 
If people didn't want to live longer and healthier lives, why are the last six months of people's lives as expensive (medically) as the decade leading up to it? We already let the dying dictate the lifestyles of the healthy

Again, you're (deliberately?) avoiding the issue of degree. In the UK, the dying dictate the lifestyles of the healthy to the extent that they (='the elderly', here, which I think means over-65s) take up 40% of the NHS budget, or about 3.2% of GDP. So caring for the elderly means that younger people can't have a non-negligible amount of things - 3.2% of the UK's GDP is quite a lot. But in the grand scheme of things, it still leaves 96.8% of GDP untouched. Vastly increasing the number of elderly people, even while reducing the rate of diseases like dementia, cancer and so forth, would mean massive changes to how people could live - for one thing, there would be serious population pressures that would need to be somehow addressed, and a hugely skewed ratio of retired to working people. At some point, you have to start looking at how much social cost buys how much social good: it's not enough to say 'well, that's already a problem, so we shouldn't be worried about making it more of a problem'.
 
We already let the dying dictate the lifestyles of the healthy
Some of the dying would prefer to do it on their own terms, as in doctor-assisted dying. I am very angry with the Liberal government for the half-<censored> effort they made with this legislation and there are some choice words I would say to Jodi Wilson-Raybould if we ever met face-to-face. No, that legislation is not constitutional, it ignores some pretty important issues that the Supreme Court said were to be addressed, and while I don't wish suffering on anyone, I look forward to seeing someone take the government to court over this. There is no damned excuse why people should still have to fly to Switzerland for a service our own government should be allowing, and no excuse for not allowing pre-arrangements in the case of people who are at-risk, or who have received their diagnosis but not yet at death's door.

The "reasonably foreseeable" clause is ridiculous. EVERYONE's death is "reasonably foreseeable" unless the Highlander TV series is a documentary instead of fiction.
 
What restrictions do they have on physician-assisted suicide that you find excessive?

FWIW, palliative care and hospice care is pretty good for most cancers, even when there isn't . My mother died of cancer in 2014, and she got all the opioids she needed at any dose including ones that would be considered dangerous for a non-terminal patient. It was able to control her pain all the way up until the last 36 hours when she stopped being lucid.

Although medical professionals are technically not allowed to assist your death in Illinois or most other US states, hospice care does provide the patient with more than enough strong opioids that they can decide to overdose themselves if they wish and are physically capable of it, providing a very peaceful end. My mother didn't choose that, but it's an option that is available to anyone in hospice care who have made that decision and are still capable of doing it themselves.
 
What restrictions do they have on physician-assisted suicide that you find excessive?
The Supreme Court made a number of recommendations to Parliament that included allowing mentally ill and mature minors to request doctor-assisted dying; I myself have no personal stake in those, but there are some who do.

What angers me is that there are no provisions for people to make advance contingency plans. In the case of Alzheimers sufferers, they're screwed. The moment a person receives a diagnosis of Alzheimers (or dementia), that person is no longer deemed fit to make their own legal and medical decisions. My grandmother had Alzheimers - and thank goodness she died in less than a year. She was able to do a few things for herself, but had no idea who anyone was, and was afraid all the time. My dad has dementia and doesn't remember over 90% of his own life. He has no idea who his own parents were. It's been awhile since I last saw him, and I have no idea if he remembers me. I absolutely do not want to live like that, not knowing myself, not remembering my family, friends, or anything else.

I've mentioned it before, about the female side of my mother's family. Every generation that I know of has experienced cancer. My grandmother survived, but my mother and aunt didn't. With my mother she went through multiple courses of chemo, had one leg amputated, and the cancer still came back. It finally spread everywhere, including to her brain. At the end, she had a vague idea who her own mother was, but little sense of who she herself was.

That's not the kind of death I want, nor the deaths experienced by my great-uncle, cousin, or even my dad's girlfriend (all died of cancer). I want the choice to decide for myself, IF either of these should come to pass. The problem with the legislation is that it specifies the patient must make the request either verbally or in writing, when death is "reasonably foreseeable."

That's insane. Everyone on this planet has a "reasonably foreseeable" death coming, since nobody is immortal. And if a patient is incapable of writing, typing, or speaking, they're screwed.


It's crazy that I can give my pets a dignified death to spare them further pain (and I've had to do this numerous times during the last 31 years), but my choices are limited for myself if the need ever arises. I know what my dad's preference is, but I'm not allowed to make that decision for him (as his guardian I make all his other medical decisions). And he's not legally allowed to make it for himself.

I'm not gung-ho about death, but I've had enough experience in my life to have seen family members go through things I know I don't want to.
 
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