In the Beginning...

[Arakhor]

The second coming will not be of an ordinary human nor from birth. It will be from outside.

How could you possibly say that with such certainty?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

How could you possibly say that with such certainty?

/religion

 

[warpus]

It will not be what you would call a person at all. The Incarnation is a past event. The second coming will not be of an ordinary human nor from birth. It will be from outside.

J

If you say so!

Wait, do you mean it could be a test tube baby or something similar?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Steve Jobs was a white collar criminal.

Then he was perhaps the one eyed among the blind for we are all criminals one way or the other.

 

[Lexicus]

Then he was perhaps the one eyed among the blind for we are all criminals one way or the other.

Most of us actually don't violate antitrust laws by conspiring with other companies to keep our employees' salaries low, but sure.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

It will not be what you would call a person at all. The Incarnation is a past event. The second coming will not be of an ordinary human nor from birth. It will be from outside.

J

They say that everybody has an opinion. So here is mine. Jesus was already here but just like then he left almost completely unrecognised. Just like before he was supposed to die violent death - he was supposed to get shot - but he changed his destiny this time.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Most of us actually don't violate antitrust laws by conspiring with other companies to keep our employees' salaries low, but sure.

Most of us are simply not in position to do that. Thats all.

 

[Lexicus]

No, most of us would not knowingly do that because most of us are not sociopaths who would kill and injure people for money.

The problem with our system of course is that this is precisely what's needed to rise to the top and as a result we are ruled by the least ethical people among us.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

No, most of us would not knowingly do that because most of us are not sociopaths who would kill and injure people for money.

The problem with our system of course is that this is precisely what's needed to rise to the top and as a result we are ruled by the least ethical people among us.

This I think is only part of the truth. Give anyone an excess of power and you are almost certainly going to witness his change into a sociopath.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Are the rummage sales examples of predation and greed? I can think of some board rooms debating the maximum profitability of foods and medicines within the temple of the body that would be best served, from a humanity perspective, with a literal dose of kill it with fire.

I wouldn't think of a rummage sale as an example of predation and greed, unless the seller was asking outrageous prices, or the church was gouging people on the price of renting a table. My question was more along the line of "would Jesus be angry that any kind of buying/selling was going on at all." What's involved is that the church either rents its basement to an organization that wants to hold the sale, or it's organized by the church itself. The church gets its money from renting either the premises or the tables. The organizers are responsible for advertising the event. The sellers rent the tables, and hopefully make more money than they paid to rent the table.

Obviously, no sacrificial animals are going to be sold, and no moneylenders are present. It's essentially a garage sale/bake sale that happens to take place in a church. Would Jesus object to this, particularly if everyone involved hopes to make a profit?

Thats very informative

It shows your claim of Gen. 1:1 being the title as incorrect.

But it aint dry land... thats why its without form

Never looked at a lakebed or underwater anywhere else? It's not "formless" there. Even if you stir up mud, that doesn't mean there isn't a bottom there.

Have you found any articles linking our water to the asteroid belt?

You claim Earth was formed in the asteroid belt. Links, please. Reputable ones, not from a mythology site or some Velikovsky-type nonsense.

They told us (Enuma Elish) and showed us (cylinder seal VA 243)

It's rather tiresome, with this insistence that the Babylonians had telescopes (they didn't), and now you're suggesting they knew about supernovae, stellar nurseries, and star formation? Yes, they would have seen supernovae, but as for knowing exactly what they were... no.

A "fundamentalist" view of the Flood says the gates of Heaven were opened and the waters above were released. Its possible a comet was involved with the Flood.

Yes, some comets have water. But a comet hitting Earth isn't going to flood it. Was there a flood as a result of the Tunguska Event?

*shrug* It's difficult to avoid hypocrisy, and expecting good editing from a book written over centuries is a bit much imo.

The Bible is one of the most important sources for the history of the ancient and classical Near East. Some of its stories are interesting, some less so.

I think it's pretty silly to judge it because it falls short of the claims of fundamentalists. One guy I've argued with a lot on another forum I'm on is a real YEC, always comes up with "science" to justify why the Bible is right. Literally argues that the speed of light changed over the life of the universe to just make it look like stars are millions of light-years away...it's an entertaining exercise.

That he does all this, to me has no impact on the way I view the Bible. The Bible is not a science book or a history book either. It's a book of primitive myths that can tell us a lot about how the people who wrote it thought and lived, and it should be judged as such - not as the inerrant word of God.

The hypocrisy lies with the people who claim perfection for God, perfection for Jesus, and that the bible is infallible and the direct word of God/Jesus. If they were perfect, and if the bible were perfect, there's no hypocrisy. Since they aren't, hypocrisy abounds.

The galaxies were all thrown out like bullets from a gun. But that changed to inflation theory. Now they say it has been expanding for a while, and is even excelerating. No one knows the size of the universe at the beginning, because the math does not work to that point. All we know is the light at the beginning left a view that tells us the universe is about 14 billion years.

If Genesis got it right, they were ahead of their time, because only modern science seems to think they knew what happened, and the universe is older than the earth. That is what the ancients believed. Because they say a god came along and just created this solar system.

Whut?

Galaxies full of stars made of nothing but hydrogen and helium, right from the start? I'd love to see where you get that.

As for our solar system, it was recycled from a previous, older generation of stars that went supernova and their remnants eventually began creating new stars. One of those was ours, and 5 billion years later, here we are. No deity required - only physics, chemistry, biology, and a lot of time.

At Catholic answers there's this: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=12355022&postcount=13

Who was St Jerome: http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/saint.aspx?id=1154

These are Catholic views, some Christians may not agree.

Okay, I can see being upset at the priests fleecing people. But what about the others?

 

[Berzerker]

"In the beginning period of God creating the universe, the earth was without form and void...." It does not say "before" the Spirit started to hover. The Spirit hovering was still the act of creation.

What comes first in Gen 1:2, the earth without form and waters or the spirit of God?

The point of light which was not a bang, was the introduction of instant light throughout the whole universe. It was not the sun; that light did not appear until the sunrise of day 4.

the darkness was first and when the light was introduced it was called day

The sky/firmament/heaven/dome/fixed space between the waters was made on day 2 and was there on day 3, day 4, day 5, and is still there today. We call it atmosphere.

why is the atmosphere 'firm'?

Heaven is not the atmosphere and/or the universe

 

[abradley]

{Snip}
Okay, I can see being upset at the priests fleecing people. But what about the others?

What others?

Would you only be angry at politicians taking kickbacks from contractors doing shoddy work?

 

[Berzerker]

It shows your claim of Gen. 1:1 being the title as incorrect.

no it doesn't

Never looked at a lakebed or underwater anywhere else? It's not "formless" there. Even if you stir up mud, that doesn't mean there isn't a bottom there.

Its not in the form of dry land

You claim Earth was formed in the asteroid belt. Links, please. Reputable ones, not from a mythology site or some Velikovsky-type nonsense.

The links have been posted, Earth's material and water matches Vesta

It's rather tiresome, with this insistence that the Babylonians had telescopes (they didn't), and now you're suggesting they knew about supernovae, stellar nurseries, and star formation? Yes, they would have seen supernovae, but as for knowing exactly what they were... no.

I never said the Babylonians had telescopes and I didn't say they knew about stellar nurseries etc

Yes, some comets have water. But a comet hitting Earth isn't going to flood it. Was there a flood as a result of the Tunguska Event?

what happens if it hits the ocean?

We dont know what exploded above Russia but a comet entering the atmosphere would produce plenty of water vapor, so "rain" can come from space.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

What others?

Would you only be angry at politicians taking kickbacks from contractors doing shoddy work?

Are you saying the priests were the only ones at the temple?

no it doesn't

Yes, it does. "Holy Bible" is on the front cover and spine. The first chapter/verse of Genesis are not.

The links have been posted, Earth's material and water matches Vesta

One link. If there is anything in that article that states that Earth formed in the asteroid belt, please quote it, because I couldn't find anything. It does opine that water common to both Vesta and Earth were brought by asteroid collisions. That doesn't mean Earth actually formed in the asteroid belt.

what happens if it hits the ocean?

Are you trying to suggest that a comet hit the ocean (after not burning up in the atmosphere) and the resulting tidal wave flooded the entire planet?

We dont know what exploded above Russia but a comet entering the atmosphere would produce plenty of water vapor, so "rain" can come from space.

The comet has to enter the atmosphere first, so no, this hypothetical rain doesn't come from space.

 

[Berzerker]

Yes, it does. "Holy Bible" is on the front cover and spine. The first chapter/verse of Genesis are not.

there you have it, "Genesis" is a title that is not on the front cover and spine

One link. If there is anything in that article that states that Earth formed in the asteroid belt, please quote it, because I couldn't find anything. It does opine that water common to both Vesta and Earth were brought by asteroid collisions. That doesn't mean Earth actually formed in the asteroid belt.

Not just water but meteorites...and it means the Earth could have formed there.

Are you trying to suggest that a comet hit the ocean (after not burning up in the atmosphere) and the resulting tidal wave flooded the entire planet?

Not the entire planet

The comet has to enter the atmosphere first, so no, this hypothetical rain doesn't come from space.

the comet came from space, so did its water/ice

but you'll have to argue that out with the fundamentalists who ascribe to that theory if that doesn't satisfy you, I'm not defending their views and I wouldn't do them justice if I tried.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

In the beginning...

...someone got this stupid idea that there's an ultimate beginning. For which we still have no solid basis. But everyone is infested with this stupid idea.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Observation tells us that most physical things seem to have a beginning and and end. And since there appears to be some evidence of a beginning to our physical universe, the inquiry seems valid.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

there you have it, "Genesis" is a title that is not on the front cover and spine

You said that the first chapter and verse were the title. They're not.

Not just water but meteorites...and it means the Earth could have formed there.

Stop tap dancing around this. You've made a claim that Earth formed in the asteroid belt. I'm asking for links to back this up. The link you provided does not prove your claim. And don't say you provided other links. I did a search of your posts in this thread, and there's only one... which I read, and it does not say that Earth formed in the asteroid belt.

Not the entire planet

Well, so much for the Noah's Ark story, then.

the comet came from space, so did its water/ice

It wasn't raining in space.

 

[abradley]

Are you saying the priests were the only ones at the temple?


{Snip}

No, I'm not, there were merchants and money changers also.
The cleansing of the Temple narrative tells of Jesus expelling the merchants and the money changers from the Temple, and occurs in all four canonical gospels of the New Testament.

 

[Berzerker]

You said that the first chapter and verse were the title. They're not.

I said Gen 1:1 is a title for the story that follows, ie the actual story begins in Gen 1:2 and proceeds to explain how God creates Heaven and Earth. If Gen 1:1 is interpreted as the beginning of the story, then we have God creating Heaven and Earth twice. Once before the days of creation even began and again on the 2nd and 3rd days.

Furthermore, since neither Heaven or Earth are the universe the story is not about the beginning of existence, its a story about the beginning of the dry land and life on this world. Thats why the dry land's "sky" is described on the 4th day, the Earth in Gen 1:1 wasn't Earth (dry land) until the 3rd day.

Stop tap dancing around this. You've made a claim that Earth formed in the asteroid belt. I'm asking for links to back this up. The link you provided does not prove your claim. And don't say you provided other links. I did a search of your posts in this thread, and there's only one... which I read, and it does not say that Earth formed in the asteroid belt.

Why does my claim require a link making the same claim? We've had this debate multiple times and you've asked for and received several links. I've offered evidence in support of my claim from both the world of myth and the sciences. You have a link in this thread matching our water and material to Vesta. Do you have a link proving the Earth didn't form at the asteroid belt?

Well, so much for the Noah's Ark story, then.

Yup, no flood covered the highest mountains

It wasn't raining in space.

The water came from space... its possible for a comet to deposit enough water vapor/ice in our atmosphere to cause rain. That could give rise to a myth of the gates of heaven opening up allowing water from above the Heaven to fall to Earth. But thats more up Tim's alley, I'm not in the camp that believes Heaven is the atmosphere and that there was a body of water above and below it.