In the Beginning...

How could you possibly say that with such certainty?

The first coming is in humility. The second in power and judgment.

They say that everybody has an opinion. So here is mine. Jesus was already here but just like then he left almost completely unrecognised. Just like before he was supposed to die violent death - he was supposed to get shot - but he changed his destiny this time.:D

Not opinion, or at least not mine. This is canon in literally every sect of Christendom. You can get into the same arguments of literal vs metaphor, but everyone agrees that Jesus returns to rule.

To me, the real question is whether it happens before or after we have sloughed off this mortal coil.

J
 
What comes first in Gen 1:2, the earth without form and waters or the spirit of God?

I am still not getting your definitions. There was no earth in verse 2. The Spirit was "holding" the spot where water and matter would become the earth. The "Let there be light" moment would have obliterated a physical Earth.

the darkness was first and when the light was introduced it was called day

Evening came first that day and every day. The light was instantaneous and then faded into evening. The first day starts with evening which last from about 6pm to 6am in this context with morning following evening. The first day did not start out in light, nor was there light for another 60 hours. The 2nd day was from evening to the next evening. The 3rd day was from evening to the next evening. The last 12 hours was dark until the last half of the 4th day when the sun was shining.

why is the atmosphere 'firm'?

Heaven is not the atmosphere and/or the universe

Because it separated the waters from the waters. Some Jewish Rabbi's thought there was at least 500 miles between the surface of the earth and a body of water that looked like a dome around the earth. Well the people on this single land mass thought it was a dome. They must have never tried to sail around the earth. At least not until the land started to separate.

The text does not define the definitions of heaven and earth. How they are used in context does that. The words "heaven" and "earth" had several different meanings. There was no word for the concept of universe. But their "universe" was not just this solar system. They named the "fixed" constellations and there was a whole system called astrology that the ancients used, which was eventually replaced with astronomy and mapping one's travelling destination.

They may have even been aware of the Milky Way Galaxy. The Hebrews were different from the rest. They divided the calendar up by the moon, instead of the sun. It was one of those important "lights" in the sky. Or else they just rejected the sun, because it was the basis of religious practices of the ancient groups around them, which God told them not to follow. They even rejected astrology until after the first century CE. IMO and the writings that make up the prophetical portion of the OT, they got their inspiration from God through thought instead of prognosis from astrology.
 
Okay. But hypothetically, if Jesus happened to pass by a church in my city and there was a rummage sale going on in the basement, would he be upset? Assume that it's at least partially to benefit the church, either by selling donated stuff or by renting tables to other people who sell stuff. Either way, it's still commercial activity in a house of worship.

Why does my claim require a link making the same claim? We've had this debate multiple times and you've asked for and received several links. I've offered evidence in support of my claim from both the world of myth and the sciences. You have a link in this thread matching our water and material to Vesta. Do you have a link proving the Earth didn't form at the asteroid belt?
It's required, because otherwise I'm going to assume you just dreamed this up after watching a Velikovsky video.

You made the claim. It's on you to provide the evidence. I read the article you linked to (the ONLY article you've linked to in this entire thread). It mentions Vesta and Earth having water with the same properties, but at no time did the article say that Earth formed in the asteroid belt. I'll go along with water/ice-bearing comets or asteroids striking both Earth and Vesta, but that in no way proves that they were anywhere close to each other, or that Earth formed in the asteroid belt.

So if you're going to cite that article to prove your claim, quote the relevant text. Or find some other article from a reputable source.

Yup, no flood covered the highest mountains
Well, I'm relieved that you'll at least concede that.
 
Okay. But hypothetically, if Jesus happened to pass by a church in my city and there was a rummage sale going on in the basement, would he be upset? Assume that it's at least partially to benefit the church, either by selling donated stuff or by renting tables to other people who sell stuff. Either way, it's still commercial activity in a house of worship.{Snip}
I believe your missing the point:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/03/cleansing-the-temple.html
Do you know why the commerce in the temple was so bad? Not because you shouldn’t sell stuff in church. It’s because the Jews had to make sacrifice in the temple in Jerusalem. It couldn’t happen anywhere else. Furthermore, they had to sacrifice animals that were perfect. So here is what happened:
Good Jewish man comes to temple gates to sacrifice the little lamb he thought was perfectly acceptable. The temple guard checks it out..whoops it has a defect. He has to buy one of the approved ones which they have already inspected in the temple courtyard.
So your Jewish worshipper goes to buy his sacrificial lamb, but he’s not allowed to use the Roman currency because it has an image of the emperor on it which is a graven image and that would be blasphemous to bring into the temple, so he has to change the Roman money to Jewish shekels, which can only be done–you guessed it–at the official money changer table.
So he goes to change his money to buy his lamb to make his sacrifice and finds out that, too bad, the exchange rate is not so good and also the money change makes a commission on each transaction.
No wonder Jesus was hopping mad. They were making a killing out of the poor Jewish faithful who, by their own religious rules, had to make a sacrifice in that place in that way approved by those people who were all getting rich on it.
Simple.
 
Not opinion, or at least not mine. This is canon in literally every sect of Christendom. You can get into the same arguments of literal vs metaphor, but everyone agrees that Jesus returns to rule.

Millennial teachings are not present in "literally every sect of Christendom". Their absence might be as rare as non-Trinitarian beliefs, but the Second Coming is not entirely universal.
 
Millennial teachings are not present in "literally every sect of Christendom". Their absence might be as rare as non-Trinitarian beliefs, but the Second Coming is not entirely universal.

I did not mention any millennial teachings.

That the Son is returning in power is nearly universal. The question is how that will manifest, not if. That said, I cannot tell if you are disagreeing or quibbling with phrasing.

J
 
As far as I know, the Second Coming is a millennial teaching, but yes, I'd agree that it's nearly universal in Christendom.
 
I am still not getting your definitions. There was no earth in verse 2. The Spirit was "holding" the spot where water and matter would become the earth. The "Let there be light" moment would have obliterated a physical Earth.

The Earth in Gen 1:2 is under water, it was without form, it wasn't dry land...yet. The Earth doesn't appear until the 3rd day, in the beginning refers to when Heaven and Earth came to exist, they didn't exist yet in Gen 1:2. That primordial world in Gen 1:2 from which Earth emerged on the 3rd day is called "tehom" in the Bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehom

The light was the collision between Tehom and God and it resulted in a world spinning closer to the sun where night and day alternate with a new sky to be ruled over by various lights.

In some myths Heaven and Earth were one before being cleaved in two by God and Heaven was left behind to mark the spot of the battle. This is why Heaven is the name God gave the firmament, a hammered out bracelet dividing the waters above from the waters below.

The asteroid belt straddles the snow line of the early solar system, the water below became our Seas and the water above is still there. The water content of asteroids varies based on their location above and below the snow line. Thats where our water came from... Researchers are trying to import our water, they need to import the planet.

Evening came first that day and every day. The light was instantaneous and then faded into evening. The first day starts with evening which last from about 6pm to 6am in this context with morning following evening. The first day did not start out in light, nor was there light for another 60 hours. The 2nd day was from evening to the next evening. The 3rd day was from evening to the next evening. The last 12 hours was dark until the last half of the 4th day when the sun was shining.

The order of night and day was established in Gen 1:2-3, the darkness preceded both God and the light. Tehom was in darkness and covered by water... So Gen 1:2 could be interpreted to mean the 1st day started with the darkness (evening) before the light (day). But the light was God's first creative act, God did not create the darkness, the waters or the submerged Earth.

Because it separated the waters from the waters. Some Jewish Rabbi's thought there was at least 500 miles between the surface of the earth and a body of water that looked like a dome around the earth.

But the atmosphere is not firm and the Earth didn't exist on the 2nd day. The primordial world in Gen 1:2 had an atmosphere, the world was covered by water. What changed was the appearance of Earth on the 3rd followed by its sky on the 4th.

The text does not define the definitions of heaven and earth. How they are used in context does that. The words "heaven" and "earth" had several different meanings. There was no word for the concept of universe.

The heavens became the observable sky but Heaven was unseen. The text defines it as something firm dividing or separating the waters above from what would become our seas.

It's required, because otherwise I'm going to assume you just dreamed this up after watching a Velikovsky video.

Sitchin... it was a book. You haven't posted any links.

You made the claim. It's on you to provide the evidence.

I read the article you linked to (the ONLY article you've linked to in this entire thread).

I've provided evidence and several links in multiple threads on the subject

It mentions Vesta and Earth having water with the same properties, but at no time did the article say that Earth formed in the asteroid belt.

The article was linked to show our water came from the asteroid belt

I'll go along with water/ice-bearing comets or asteroids striking both Earth and Vesta, but that in no way proves that they were anywhere close to each other, or that Earth formed in the asteroid belt.

Comets have varied water signatures and have been ruled out, but I dont think Vesta and Earth got their water from asteroids. Asteroids (and Vesta) got their water from the proto-Earth - the proto-Earth is the source of the water and the asteroids.

So if you're going to cite that article to prove your claim, quote the relevant text. Or find some other article from a reputable source.

The article says our water came from asteroids beyond the snow line. You could start with the caption to the picture:

WATER, WATER EVERYWHERE Earth is a wet planet that formed in a dry part of the solar system. How our planet’s water arrived may be a story of big, bullying planets and ice-filled asteroids.

But thats just the tip of the iceberg:

Saal’s findings suggest two things: Earth and the moon have a common source of water and the water was already here when the moon formed.

If our water was here during the lunar cataclysm, the solar wind would have blown the water vapor out to the asteroid belt where it condensed into ice. Not to mention a ring of debris...but thats at the asteroid belt, no evidence it happened here.

Now, the problem theorists are having is they want to import Earths water from the asteroid belt but the older our oceans become the less time there is to import the water.

Researchers thought the water might have arrived during the late heavy bombardment ~4 bya when Jupiter was flinging asteroids around. Then they found out our water was older than 4 bya so they decided Jupiter "tack"ed inward before that (without replacing it as the mechanism for the late heavy bombardment) sending water laden asteroids our way.

I dont know why they think Jupiter formed before planets closer to the sun where material was more plentiful, I can understand a planet forming at the snow line very quickly but Jupiter's twice as far away and Saturn twice that. Anyway, our water predates our rock. Jupiter roaming around asteroids didn't deliver it.

Why is Mars so small? There should have been plenty of raw material available 4.6 billion years ago to turn Mars into a planet closer in size to Venus or Earth. But Mars is just about half Earth’s diameter and about one-tenth its mass. One possible explanation is that something prematurely robbed the nascent Red Planet of its building blocks.

Their culprit? Jupiter again... I think Venus formed before Mars because its closer to the sun and Earth formed before Mars because it formed at the snow line. Both deprived Mars of material, no need to have Jupiter involved.

Well, I'm relieved that you'll at least concede that.

I never said otherwise
 
As far as I know, the Second Coming is a millennial teaching, but yes, I'd agree that it's nearly universal in Christendom.

I only say "nearly" because I know of no exceptions.

The second coming is not a millennial teaching. It's a literal reading of the book of Acts:
As they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly two men in white clothing stood near them and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.”

Millenial teachings have to do with the thousand years found in Revelation. There is confusion because millennial teachings have to do with eschatology, the study of end times, as does the second coming.

J
 
Sitchin... it was a book. You haven't posted any links.
Why should I post links? I'm not the one making the claim that Earth was formed in the asteroid belt... a claim for which I haven't been able to find anything to corroborate it. So you're saying you got this notion from a book? What book?

I've provided evidence and several links in multiple threads on the subject
There is no way that I've got time to do that kind of search on your posts. Find it yourself and repost them in this thread. I'll take a look at them, but do NOT expect me to go on a scavenger hunt through your posts. I may spend a lot of time here, but this isn't the only forum I visit every day, and OT isn't the only part of the forum where I hang out when I am here.

The article was linked to show our water came from the asteroid belt
Just because the water may have come from there, it doesn't mean Earth itself did. The article says NOTHING about that.
 
Why should I post links? I'm not the one making the claim that Earth was formed in the asteroid belt... a claim for which I haven't been able to find anything to corroborate it. So you're saying you got this notion from a book? What book?

Zechariah Sitchin is an ancient astronaut theorist, in the same vein as Erich von Däniken. You won't want to waste your time.

I only say "nearly" because I know of no exceptions.

I don't believe in the Second Coming. I wonder if Bhsup does.
 
I remember getting into Erich Von Daniken when I first moved to Canada. Picked up Chariots of the Gods randomly at a used book store because it looked interesting. Read the whole thing and I said "whoa" a couple times and "that's right!" a couple more. Then the internet was invented and I figured out it was all nonsense.
 
The ancient astronauts stuff is definitely interesting fodder for fiction.
 
It's funny watching those ancient alien TV shows. There's usually a lot of interesting content at the beginning of the show, actually interesting stuff that I don't mind watching.

But then...

"Is it possible... that ancient aliens did all of this?"

"The answer I believe is definitely yes"

I mean, come on, you might as well say "Is it possible that intelligent time-travelling cows from another dimension did all this?" ... "The answer I believe is definitely yes"
 
Zechariah Sitchin is an ancient astronaut theorist, in the same vein as Erich von Däniken. You won't want to waste your time.
Ah, thank you. No, I won't waste my time with that. I already put in over 6 hours of my life with those stupid videos in the "Ask an Atlanteologist" thread. Apparently EltonJ has decided to head for the hills and never come back to finish answering people's questions.

I wouldn't credit these people with being theorists in the scientific sense, any more than I would with people who say, "Wow, isn't the world cool? Only a supernatural being could have done all this!".

I remember getting into Erich Von Daniken when I first moved to Canada. Picked up Chariots of the Gods randomly at a used book store because it looked interesting. Read the whole thing and I said "whoa" a couple times and "that's right!" a couple more. Then the internet was invented and I figured out it was all nonsense.
It can suck a person in. I was into astrology for awhile, and had my own copy of Chariots of the Gods (and a few other similar books). But I took an anthropology course in high school, and the teacher showed the Chariots of the Gods film. The aerial views of the Mayan and Aztec pyramids, plus some of the music, were designed to make the viewer get carried away... and then the teacher explained why it's all nonsense.

Shortly after that, the original Cosmos started on PBS (this was 35 years ago)... and I left pseudoscience behind ever since.

This made it rather annoying when my dad - an otherwise sensible person when it comes to science, as he always encouraged me in astronomy and geography/geology - got into this "ancient aliens" nonsense and kept prodding me to read some tabloid article he'd read on UFOs, or watch some UFO video.

It's funny watching those ancient alien TV shows. There's usually a lot of interesting content at the beginning of the show, actually interesting stuff that I don't mind watching.

But then...

"Is it possible... that ancient aliens did all of this?"

"The answer I believe is definitely yes"

I mean, come on, you might as well say "Is it possible that intelligent time-travelling cows from another dimension did all this?" ... "The answer I believe is definitely yes"
You mean they didn't? But, but, but... a cow jumped over the Moon! It says so, right in the book of nursery rhymes! They had to have had advanced knowledge of rockets and propulsion, and how to breathe in space without carrying oxygen!


:p
 
I mean, come on, you might as well say "Is it possible that intelligent time-travelling cows from another dimension did all this?" ... "The answer I believe is definitely yes"

It's not a definite yes because cows don't have opposable thumbs.
 
It's not a definite yes because cows don't have opposable thumbs.

Trivially explained away because the space cows found workarounds.

And yes, there's no reason to accept one contrived story over another absent evidence. The evidence we do have contradicts a literal interpretation of the story, but who's keeping track amirite? We can make star trek, harry potter, and planet of the apes into mass-accepted belief systems too, why not?
 
It's kind of amazing what cows can do:

astronautcow.jpg
 
The ancient astronauts stuff is definitely interesting fodder for fiction.
I can remember at least few Star Trek episodes that touched on this subject. One in VOY where their ship was trapped in the atmosphere of a planet for millennia in some kind of time bubble and as a result was worshiped by the people on the planet as some sort of divine vessel.... and another in TNG where the crew were regarded as gods because of their "magic" technology and they spent the whole episode trying to disabuse the natives of this notion... there was a similar episode involving Ferengi (in VOY I think) where the Ferengi were of course exploiting the natives' perception of them as gods instead... then of course there was the entire plot of DS9.

It is an amusing/tragic thought that maybe our whole concept of religion is the result of us being punk'd on a cosmic scale by some advanced aliens who visited our planet eons ago...
 
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