Invading Mexico to End the Cartels

[Narz]

I mean the fallout of unemployed violent gangsters looking for work would be real. But agreed you can't let that hold you hostage from doing the right thing. I suppose we can figure out what happened after prohibition ended. It took America 30ish years to whittle the mob down, arguably 60. But thank God the mafia isn't a contender in American politics anymore.

Meh I trust gigacorporations about as much as mobsters.

Fat Tony might be corrupt and break a few thumbs now and then but some Indian dork claiming climate change is a hoax is more deadly.

That is true. And it's also true that unleashing big business with the mandate of the government to sell and profit off of some of the most addictive and destructive substances we know is a historical evil we've seen before.

So to clarify you're pro drug prohibition/war?

The worst drugs are already legal. I got fentanyl in my surgery cocktail. Cocaine is pretty boring and far less addictive than opiates or alcohol (coke is like bad affair most people leave behind, alcoholism can often be like a bad marriage that goes on decades)

 

[REDY]

Debateable but even if you're right is it a bigger source of abuse and corruption (not to mention violence) than organised crime?

It's arguable, but I don't see them as opposites.
The concept of the state acting as a competing dealer of free drugs could attract organized crime. There will be needed a large bureaucracy and regulations to combat the issue. Otherwise, the state and organized crime might merge.
Without addressing addiction and its triggers, we would still be stuck in the same cycle of repression and prevention. However, in this scenario, it would be the state that is making people sick.

 

[AmazonQueen]

It's arguable, but I don't see them as opposites.
The concept of the state acting as a competing dealer of free drugs could attract organized crime. There will be needed a large bureaucracy and regulations to combat the issue. Otherwise, the state and organized crime might merge.
Without addressing addiction and its triggers, we would still be stuck in the same cycle of repression and prevention. However, in this scenario, it would be the state that is making people sick.

At least we're agreed on the need for dealing with addiction. After over 50 years it should be evident that the problem has only got worse since Nixon declared war on drugs.

 

[Narz]

Without addressing addiction and its triggers, we would still be stuck in the same cycle of repression and prevention

We don't need to address everything before legalization.

Making addicts into criminals is another layer of the problem. Eliminate that asap and worry about addiction along the way

 

[Farm Boy]

So to clarify you're pro drug prohibition/war?

The worst drugs are already legal. I got fentanyl in my surgery cocktail. Cocaine is pretty boring and far less addictive than opiates or alcohol (coke is like bad affair most people leave behind, alcoholism can often be like a bad marriage that goes on decades)

Specify. Cocaine, heroin, methamphetamines taken recreationally? Yes. Yes I am. The prohibition more than the war. War is an inappropriate lens for this, as is ever expecting to "win." Trying to win win is dumb. Above-the-board peddlers drove the opiate crisis, it's their creation. There's people on pharmaceutical boards that deserve a Batman from one of the comic book series where he uses guns.

Alcoholism can go on for so long because it takes so very much in the way of dosage over time to cause serious chronic harm to most people. That and cigarettes, which are miserable for your health and addictive(but a strong and effective anti-depressant), are pretty good stand-in vices comparatively. Weed's alright, but people who are constantly under heavy doses of hallucinogens are frequently not improved at all by the situation. But they don't overdose, and they don't typically become violent while under the influence. If you just let people grow their own that'd just nearly flat eliminate a low income problem(but that won't be allowed. Who are the gangsters, again? Surely not the sponsors of the New East India companies).Though, you should probably note usage rates since legalization are up. The teenagers with the vapes aren't doing nicotine and those are not as good at being sharp freshmen as they were. Just my slowly out-dating observation from a state school. On ?high point?, they socialize less and have less sex than they used to. So I guess they're more ?conservative?, fundamentally, when you look at how they live their lives.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I know I'm skipping over pages of conversation, but this idea of DeSantis' only further demonstrates what an unserious mind he is. Anyone who thinks military force is a solution to a problem like this one has never read a book. Or even watched an episode of Frontline. I would be nervous about this guy managing a grocery store, nvm the nation.


EDIT: I'm reminded of an episode of The West Wing from what must be 20 years ago: "What did you think of Governor Ritchie's book?" "I'll read it when he does. He's a .22 caliber mind in a .357 Magnum world." Some people think being stupid is more authentic or something. People said they liked George W. Bush because he seemed like a guy you could have a beer with. Then he got 4,000 Americans killed and 32,000 wounded, and God only knows how many Iraqis, and that's before we even mention ISIS running around with our weapons. Still want to have a beer with him, you dumb f***s?

 

[Narz]

Specify. Cocaine, heroin, methamphetamines taken recreationally? Yes. Yes I am. The prohibition more than the war.

Seeing as how it's not working & you're adding criminality to an already suffering population I don't see why.

Also how can you unlink the prohibition & the war? Like, they should be illegal but if cops adopt a don't ask policy if you don't tell?

but people who are constantly under heavy doses of hallucinogens are frequently not improved at all by the situation

Are there people constantly under heavy doses of hallucinogens? I did know one guy who ate mushrooms on the daily but far more common seems to be a few times a year type of deal.

IMO psychedelics are meant to be used infrequently. They can definitely be abused like any other drug but having them as illegal is criminal as, in the right situation, they show strong potential benefit.

Who are the gangsters, again? Surely not the sponsors of the New East India companies

I don't know what New East India companies are. The gangsters are presumably the cartels (and probably very often corrupt law enforcement). I don't know much about high end drug smuggling tbh.

Though, you should probably note usage rates since legalization are up. The teenagers with the vapes aren't doing nicotine and those are not as good at being sharp freshmen as they were. Just my slowly out-dating observation from a state school.

Are you saying kids are using more pot in places where it's legal?

On ?high point?, they socialize less and have less sex than they used to. So I guess they're more ?conservative?, fundamentally, when you look at how they live their lives.

IIRC, most teenagers are apolitical and there's a slight rise in conversativism amongst boys & liberealism amongst girls (but still the majority don't identify either way).

 

[Narz]

I know I'm skipping over pages of conversation, but this idea of DeSantis' only further demonstrates what an unserious mind he is. Anyone who thinks military force is a solution to a problem like this one has never read a book. Or even watched an episode of Frontline. I would be nervous about this guy managing a grocery store, nvm the nation.

I think he's just trying to one-up Trump with his Mexico will pay for the wall business.

This Mexico as scapegoat thing is so old & embarrassing, makes me wish Democrats had a solid Mexican-American candidate to challenge Biden to spite these idiots.

 

[Farm Boy]

I mean lived lives, not "political conservatism/liberalism." How people actually act, not the bullfeathers they say about that oh-so-life-defining moment in the ballot box.

THC is hallucinogenic in a pretty big sample of users. That's why it causes paranoia and really really stupid hot-takes on the world around. But it's one of the better ones, true.

Yes, legalization increases use. There's a reason people trusted their doctors and "regulated drug companies" enough to create a crisis and all these knock-on suicides down the line. But, out of sight out of mind. Better to quietly kill ourselves quietly en masse than suffer the terror of the news cycle talking much smaller numbers in flashy ways. I mean, that's just good business.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I think he's just trying to one-up Trump with his Mexico will pay for the wall business.

Yes, I think so too. DeSantis' poll numbers have been dropping like a stone, but I don't know if Trump's have. I don't really know why that is. Thoughtful conservatives are kind of screwed right now. If I were them, I'd be looking at the 'moderate' Democrats, try to revive the 'Blue Dogs.' But I'm not them, and I can't really pretend to be. I was just telling a colleague the other day that I think people like Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower must be spinning in their graves right now, and I'm no fan of those guys. Although I do like Ike's speech about the military-industrial complex. That same colleague didn't even know the phrase 'Blue Dog Democrat.' I'm not really sure what that means, but I thought it was interesting anyway.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I know I'm skipping over pages of conversation, but this idea of DeSantis' only further demonstrates what an unserious mind he is. Anyone who thinks military force is a solution to a problem like this one has never read a book. Or even watched an episode of Frontline. I would be nervous about this guy managing a grocery store, nvm the nation.

Even watching the 30 year-old Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger starring Harrison Ford shows what a bad idea all this is.

It even ended with soldiers ordered left behind to die for political expediency.

 

[Narz]

THC is hallucinogenic in a pretty big sample of users. That's why it causes paranoia and really really stupid hot-takes on the world around. But it's one of the better ones, true.

I wouldn't call THC hallucinogenic the way most people use it but I suppose it can be at higher doses. Most people seem to have pretty stupid takes without it. I don't think potheads rank in the top 1,000,000 of the world's problems rn.

Yes, legalization increases use. There's a reason people trusted their doctors and "regulated drug companies" enough to create a crisis and all these knock-on suicides down the line. But, out of sight out of mind. Better to quietly kill ourselves quietly en masse than suffer the terror of the news cycle talking much smaller numbers in flashy ways. I mean, that's just good business.

I think you're comparing apples & oranges.

Yes, I think so too. DeSantis' poll numbers have been dropping like a stone, but I don't know if Trump's have. I don't really know why that is.

Cuz he's a gross sycophant. Trump is like Tony Montana, he's honest even when he lies (fwiw I hate Scarface & judge anyone who thinks it's a good movie but I can still understand the appeal). He has self-awareness, he is a leader in the sense that he's smarter than those who worship him (not saying a lot of course) whereas DeSantis is just a wave rider who no one will really remember in 10 years.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Even watching the 30 year-old Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger starring Harrison Ford shows what a bad idea all this is.

It even ended with soldiers ordered left behind to die for political expediency.

Yeah, right, Tom Clancy, another American conservative who must be banging his forehead on his desk at that great shooting-range in the sky.

 

[Farm Boy]

I think you're comparing apples & oranges.

We're talking about legalizing, regulating, and taxing opiates for recreational use. Then the government gets a take. I mean, sure - it's not exactly the same as the East India Tea Company, but close enough.

Legalizing increases use. Unleashing big-data 'Murican business on 'Muricans, with profit margins and quarterly profits... man, this isn't even just apples to apples, it's Honeycrisp to Honeycrisp-I-got-last-year.

Edit: sorry, forgot to talk about "war" vs "policing." They are different lenses. War as a political and social tool specifies nearly limitless violence against the target in a fight for raw survival, its goal being that survivorship bias determines the winner. Policing(which can militarize) is a different lens. Few people are silly enough to think that we'll fund the police for a couple years, they'll do an excellent good job, and policing will naturally end through obsolescence. That's dictatorship-of-the-proletariat-level foolishness.

 

[r16]

yeah , would have been totally proper a few posts or pages back or so .

 

[AmazonQueen]

We're talking about legalizing, regulating, and taxing opiates for recreational use. Then the government gets a take. I mean, sure - it's not exactly the same as the East India Tea Company, but close enough.

Legalizing increases use. Unleashing big-data 'Murican business on 'Muricans, with profit margins and quarterly profits... man, this isn't even just apples to apples, it's Honeycrisp to Honeycrisp-I-got-last-year.

Edit: sorry, forgot to talk about "war" vs "policing." They are different lenses. War as a political and social tool specifies nearly limitless violence against the target in a fight for raw survival, its goal being that survivorship bias determines the winner. Policing(which can militarize) is a different lens. Few people are silly enough to think that we'll fund the police for a couple years, they'll do an excellent good job, and policing will naturally end through obsolescence. That's dictatorship-of-the-proletariat-level foolishness.

As opposed to allowing organised crime to control it. You tried this before with Prohibition. Just tackling supply without dealing with demand doesn't work. I worked in C&E (a UK drug enforcement agency) for 10 years, it wasn't working. Tell me you support decriminalisation for personal use or increasing funding for treatment programs and I'll believe you are serious but atm you just sound like excuses for not d/w the problem.

 

[Farm Boy]

Why on earth would I have a problem with treatment programs and light smacks on the wrists for use*? Decriminalization? Probably not, no. Dropping the stigmas increases use, and use of these substances is actually a problem. Definitely no on decriminalization for pushing.

What is "working." Ending the problem? Yeah, that's not going away, it's just how it's managed. And becoming the bigger monster so that we get the rake isn't exactly "not d/w the problem" but it's probably at least as bad.

*like male homelessness, that there is no appetite for this is a bigger condemnation of this nation than almost anything else we do. "looking the other way" is bull****. Nuns and churches still seem to lead the way on actually rising to the level of giving a ****. The non-profit leaders elsewise just seem to be getting theirs, because they certainly profit themselves.

 

[REDY]

We don't need to address everything before legalization.

Making addicts into criminals is another layer of the problem. Eliminate that asap and worry about addiction along the way

OK. The American prison system is perhaps not the best for rehabilitation, and marijuana and some similar drugs should perhaps be legal.
On the other hand, many addicts will end up in jail for something more serious when they continue their addiction. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that a lot of people became addicted through their friends, not directly through dealers.
I am afraid that this would make problem bigger than what what is it now. Here in CZ experts actually searching ways how to make alcohol and tobacco less accessible.

 

[Senethro]

We could at least try out a new problem instead of another failed century of prohibition. I don't think we're going to suddenly discover the correct way to do prohibition.

 

[Farm Boy]

But isn't an old problem, we've done it before? It's why the PRC still flat murders anyone accused of dealing.