IOT Organisational and Discussion Thread

[Thorvald of Lym]

Marmot Developer's Diary (3*8)/(4*0.66 repeating)-1

Factions

Good morning, proles! Today I'll introduce you to all the parties you'll have to contend with in your eternal quest to maintain control of the state. Yes, even one-party dictatorships suffer factionalism, so be prepared to balance competing interests against your own agenda.

Inspired in part by Valkyrie, depending on your style of government and initial nation bio, certain groups will begin with more sway and higher opinion of your government than others. Different factions provide different tacit bonuses (and penalties for neglect!). Below is a generic list of interests; many of these will be custom-tailored to national flavour, and even some new groups may be added:

Conservatives—Traditionalists, averse to abrupt change and 'frivolous' spending
Moderates—Political middle-ground advocating tempered policy alternatives
Liberals—Progressives emphasizing individual liberty and radical reform
Military Leadership—The high-ranking officers in command of the armed forces
Troops—The grunts who actually do the fighting
Veterans—Retired military personnel, advocating for solid living conditions
Bureaucracy—Government civil service and administration
Civil Police—Peace officers in charge of domestic law and order
Security/Intelligence—Secret police and the state spy agency
Scientists/Technicians—Researchers and manual labourers emphasizing technological development and just work standards
Intellectuals/Artists—The intelligentsia, defenders of culture and free expression
Media/PR/Propaganda—State news outlets, public broadcasters and private channels

You can please some of the people all of the time, but only all of the people some of the time. Throughout the game, concerned citizens will present petitions for public policy that will alter groups' appraisal depending on the player's response. It's up to you to determine which interests take priority, but be warned: some are naturally more vital to your stability than others, and neglecting too many is a fast track to removal from office. You can also appease them in the short term by allocating portions of the budget directly to currying favour, but make sure to back up your promises should you ever decide to trim the bribes.

See you next time for Espionage!

 

[Double A]

Or you could just kill everyone else, country of one will always have 100% approval.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Unless you've picked "Schizophrenic" as your leader trait.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Or you could just kill everyone else, country of one will always have 100% approval.

And that always works, Im looking at Kampuchea.

 

[Mosher]

(if your living off government benefits, your not producing anything,

never has a more untrue statement been said

 

[W|M]

I'm a libertarian but I'm not going to deny that.

That was a bit of a nonsensical swing from fascism, fascism makes a lot more sense than libertarianism.

There should be Communist and Fascist factions in this IOT as well where you have to either combat them or accede to some of their demands to keep them quiet.

 

[NinjaCow64]

never has a more untrue statement been said

Agreed. I know people who are receiving money from the government that contribute to society in their own way. Although I know people who are on the dole who are complete dingbats, I imagine there are more of the former than the latter.

That was a bit of a nonsensical swing from fascism, fascism makes a lot more sense than libertarianism.

Agreed as well. Fascism is bad, but at least it is internally consistant, unlike Ron Paulist/Dominationist Libertarianism (which I believe is what you are referring to).

 

[Ailedhoo]

Historically, until recently, none of them have been the subject of the federal government.

The USA from a historical view is old? And history begins with it? Forgive me but the way you say "federal" is "US."

As for healthcare I would argue that private works a lot better then public, especially in the long run.

The NHS and records showing nations with public healthcare are higher than the USA proves otehrwise. This looks at compering to America especilly.

Wait times:
Source: Wikipedia
Make sense as inefficient government policies typically lead to shortages, so it should be no surprise that Canada has longer wait times then America.

Canada has better care for its people though than the US, especilly by not making illness into poverty.

Source: OECD Health Data, 2009.
By brother recently booked an MRI appointment, so I can say first hand that we have a shortage. He booked it in January, he gets his MRI May 30th and 3:40 am. Our MRI machines are on 24/7 and we still 4 month wait times. Again, government involvement typically leads to shortages.

As of 2007, 33% of pharmaceutical drugs used in Europe, where developed in the United States. Profit motive of developing drugs leads to more innovations in the pharmaceutical industry, so again not much of a surprise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFWTCBjtZa0[/SPOILER]

Profit lead drive to the swine fue case to be blown out the window in proportion. It lead to the American poor being unable to afford their healthcare. It lead to bankers taking greater and greater risks till they generated the crisis. It is a fuel of greed. Greed is not the path of virtue.

Factories and powergrids are normally private, and should always be private with no exception. Also transfer payments decrease market capacity (if your living off government benefits, your not producing anything, and I don't give me that BS about transfer payments increase aggregate demand, they decrease aggregate demand because of they take money out of the private sector to fund them.

Absolutism is not path of effectivneness. Factories might very in note.

Also I like your absolutly not-generalised take on welfare.

Non-productive? You see people as ecomonic units instead of people? Have greed dehumanises...

 

[mechaerik]

Can we really not get into this argument? There's enough of that in Off Topic.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Can we really not get into this argument? There's enough of that in Off Topic.

No! We must criticise Libertarianism wherever it rears it's head! Because we wish to destroy America! Because we are...THE ILLUMINATI!!!

...whoops, forgot that I wasn't meant to say that...

 

[Double A]

I just want to take the time to point out that all the virtues suck except humble, and that only helps with overconfidence. Charity and greedy aren't even mutually exclusive.

 

[JohannaK]

I for once like where this thread is going. Really, this is a very interesting argument.

 

[Tyo]

This is an IOT discussion thread. An IOT is not being discussed.

 

[JohannaK]

I'd rather argue about economy than an IOT right now.

 

[ilduce349]

Spoiler Off Topic, I know I probably should respond, but a lot of logically flawed posts were made, and I couldn't help but respond to them :

The USA from a historical view is old?

When we are looking at the government being used to promote the general welfare of the people, then yes the US is the oldest still standing example.

That was a bit of a nonsensical swing from fascism, fascism makes a lot more sense than libertarianism.

disagree.

The NHS and records showing nations with public healthcare are higher than the USA proves otehrwise. This looks at compering to America especilly.

One of the contributing factors in that study was health equality. You would get better outcomes if both the rich and the poor have bad healthcare then just the rich having healthcare.

Canada has better care for its people though than the US, especilly by not making illness into poverty.

Ummmm no. Canada has longer wait times and worse access to high quality treatments. My post was comparing health outcomes in the various nations, and saying Canada has better care without providing any data of your own doesn't make it true.

Profit lead drive to the swine fue case to be blown out the window in proportion.

Funny considering the craze was just as big here, a coutnry with no profit motif in healthcare, as in America. Profit wasn't the cause of swine flue craze, the media over reporting it was.

It lead to the American poor being unable to afford their healthcare

Again I talked about long term vs short term outcomes. I admitted that Private healthcare provides worse coverage to the poor in the short term, but far better in the long term.

It lead to bankers taking greater and greater risks till they generated the crisis.

Community Reinvestment Act forced banks to give loans to low income groups. A profit motive bank doesn't give out loans to people who don't pay them back unless they know they will be bailed out, the Clinton administration promised the bail out back in 1995, and that started the big push towards the 2008 crisis.

If the government is promising a bail out, then its no long the free market at work.

Absolutism is not path of effectivneness.

It is if you want to correctly allocate resources.

Also I like your absolutly not-generalised take on welfare.

LMAO, I'm not entirely against welfare, I'm just saying what is true. If your living off transfer payments then your not producing anything of value, so saying transfer payments is a type of infrastructure investment (the point I was disputing) is bs.

Look at the context of my points before you try to debate them.

Agreed as well. Fascism is bad, but at least it is internally consistant, unlike Ron Paulist/Dominationist Libertarianism (which I believe is what you are referring to).

Fascism is way less consistent then libertarianism. Fascism believes the government should promote the private sector, while still having almost complete control of the county.

Libertarianism believes that if there is a choice between two options, the one that provides more freedom is the correct choice.

Libertarianism, Anarchy and Communism are actually the only three loigcally consistent ideologies.

 

[NinjaCow64]

We should really take this to the Argentina thread. In fact, I will post my response there right now.

EDIT: Bah, I'll do it after dinner. Expect the post in about an hour.

 

[JohannaK]

But everybody knows Communism is intrinsically impossible. The dictatorship of the proletariat leads to a corruption of the governing ranks that inevitably ends up in an absolute dictatorship as could be seen in Russia and is still alive in North Korea and Cuba, although the latter is making opening moves towards capitalism again.

In any case, Communism is the least desirable path, albeit the less traumatic one, towards the ideal utopian society, because it will easily degenerate and corrupt itself, and as for Libertarianism which sees in private enterprise the universal panacea to all evils of society and economy, it basically promotes a wealth gap and an each second more unassailable difference between classes, in the end leading back to a medieval kind of society, with a majority of the population as poor as rats while barely living off whatever they do and a handful of people who will live at the expense of the former. Sometimes welfare is the only safeguard between us and this outcome, and you want to crush it.

I believe that anarcho-syndicalism is the one good way to go, following the Catalan anarchist tradition of the first half of the 20th Century which saw its best moment with the incredibly successful cooperativisation and collectivisation of factories, enterprises and land in Catalonia and Aragon at the beginning of the Civil War, which were rendered null and void by the takeover of Largo Caballero's central government with the staunch support of communists.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I will address things solely in the context of economic systems of IOT.

Factories and powergrids are normally private, and should always be private with no exception.

The funding for infrastructure isn't saying the government is controlling it. It's saying that the government is helping the construction of such things as factories and power grids through grants and loans.

transfer payments increase aggregate demand, they decrease aggregate demand because of they take money out of the private sector to fund them.

Correction, they decrease demand solely if they are funded through taxes. If funded through deficits the effect can be very different.

Basic economic policy is deficits and low taxes in bad times to jumpstart demand (all World War II was was a bunch of government spending no matter how you try and cut it) while raising taxes and reducing spending in boom times to prevent unsustainable growth.

Now on the wider economics of IOT:

Economics is pretty simple. There are numerous solutions to every problem that comes up. The issue arises from simple infeasibility. Economic knowledge says high taxes are good in a time of enormous economic growth, but no voter is going to like it, and no politician is going to support it. In addition, political ideologies base themselves on arbitrary moralities and "fairness" instead of economic knowledge. This is why no government can run the economy perfectly; it is bogged down by a bunch of competing interests, and is not run in a technocratic manner.

If we aim for realism there needs to be political factions that can handcuff the player. HOWEVER, if we do that, it hampers the fun of the game for most due to the simple fact half your actions are going to be reeeeeejected.

Hence, getting too into economics could greatly reduce playability, not because of the complexity, but because otherwise one could run their economy 100% perfectly without bureaucratic issues that stifle such perfect effectiveness in the real world.

Never mind given that players like to use their country as a vehicle for their political ideology, it means you're going to see a ton of debates showing up in-game about whether this economic policy is good or not. People do not change their minds on things, and it will quickly spiral into a mess.

So economics is a touchy issue in your various simulators. I chose a fairly barebones model with some simplified crowding out effects for excessive taxation or debt, but overall didn't create situational economics because it quickly leads to a mess.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

IOT XII Announcement:

The project has taken more time than I thought it would so even though it is Friday there is a chance I'll get it up late tonight, if that doesn't happen I will put it up at exactly 18:00 CET tomorrow...Thank you.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I can haz posted response!