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It's because we didn't listen to Ron Paul.
Just joking, it's just because it is course work glut season. They'll be back once the long winter of homework is over.
IOT Organisational and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tee Kay
- Start date
It's because we didn't listen to Ron Paul.
Just joking, it's just because it is course work glut season. They'll be back once the long winter of homework is over.
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
It hasn't even begun. We are waiting on based Assad.
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Small playerbase, poor player retention, long-standing players entering college and the workforce, lack of a dedicated IOT chat, repetition of settings, existing IOT culture, etc.
Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
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Well, it seems my likely retirement in the coming months may have been timed well after all. 
hoplitejoe
Top fun-poster
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We have a chat, and have been in it for a month or so now. I know you wanted an IRC, we made one, then no one came to it (including you). In general people prefer chatango, so you are going to have to accept that.
Now here is my picture of Saber.
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Dedicated IOT Chat. There hasn't been an IOT Chat that actually talks about IOTs in a dedicated way for months now. It seems that even though we have more people now in the IOT Chat than we did back in 2012 and 2011, an even smaller percentage of them even play IOTs.
In general, most of the people in IOT Chat aren't really IOTers. Not anymore really. I expect we'll have the usual bubble in a month of fall semester games popping up before another crash lasting three months, and so on.
As stated, the old blood is on the outs, and there isn't really any new blood. Who is the newest "regular" to IOT? Who was the newest before him? How many weeks, or even months, is there between adding these new regulars?
When TF started up his own IOT forum, one of the major complaints is that because it was a forum all on its own, it wouldn't be able to lure in new blood by siphoning in users who look at the actual Civilization forums. IOT has that problem now, and it didn't even leave the forum.
So yes, I am still correct in saying there isn't a dedicated IOT chat. The same way that there wasn't a dedicated RP chat after RP2, even though RP Chat was still in use for several months after the end of RP3.
Just sorting this subforum by views points to activity been on the decline for a long time. RIOT and MP have more views than MPIII and MPIV. Valkyrie, IOTVII, Iron and Blood, and RIOT all have more posts than any post-IOTVI game.
And on a cultural level, the most memorable games aren't even from this year. Valkyrie, Iron and Blood, IOTIV, Multipolarity, Revolution IOT, IOTVII, all games that are referenced constantly and form the basis of many rulesets, are games that came out at least a year ago. Valk is the youngest one there, and that game came out over a year ago now. RIOT? Over two years ago in January of 2011. IOTVII came out that summer. Iron and Blood came out that spring. If anything, 2011 was the high point for everything this board stands for.
So at what point do the powers that now be here ask, "What are the systematic problems in the sub-forum's culture?"
And the answers are
How many rulesets over the last two years stem from rulesets created by either Nedim, TK, or TF or have their finger prints in them in some way?
Furthermore, how much effort do players actually put into the games they play? Or rather, how much time do they even have? If IOT is merely supposed to be a lunch break, send in quick orders and be done for the day, kind of game, then I can say that the sub-forum isn't sustainable as it is. The only saving grace is that IOT isn't part of the growing dead zone that is Forum Games.
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Well, it seems my likely retirement in the coming months may have been timed well after all.
What...no! Are you leaving IOT permanently?
If we wanted to try and save ourselves at the moment maybe a merger with NES is in order.
Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
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No idea. But the fact my games have lower turnout than before on average and my increasing amount of duties to Sonic Social, Sonic Nevada, and Sonic California (and likely soon Sonic St. Louis and Sonic Florida), plus other things, means I'll probably be dialing back my involvement at some point in the coming year.
There will be an informal merger. Even if this subforum exists, many of its members already reside in NES and will most likely migrate there full-time if IOT falls apart.
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What does this mean for MP V?
Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
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NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
I agree with you on all of this. I must say it isn't just the lack of new blood, its also the dying of old blood. I still have the time and I dont want to leave, but I'm idea drained. I could make a slightly better Valk clone but I dont want to. I want to make something new and fun, and I want to see such games appear in which a large amount of players join and actually play (Im also to blame for the 20 people join only 3 remain when the game starts fad). Regarding IOT chat, sure we talk about OT stuff but I must say chatango is getting on my nerves. I'm all up for IRC. Chatango is buggy as hell and most people just idle on it. Not saying anything. Even the skype chat has gone under with me and JK saying 3 words in a week. So what is the solution to our many problems?
..................
We first need to create a whole new concept, a new revolutionary game that will lead us out of the blind world we have descendant into, this is the hard part, I'm as idea drained as anyone
Then we need more people, the last person joining was Chester. I have no idea how he joined but we need a larger ad system on this forum. You talk to someone on OT, ask him to join IOT...Remember when we put IOT links in our sigs and then plastered OT. That created a large influx of players as well.
This is just my mad rambling. I actually have no idea what to do. I dont want IOT to die, its a great and fun community and game. I'm MAD, and I want everyone to get mad and change something. We cant let this die.
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
Is it time for the glorious revolution, comrade?
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
lurker's comment: If I may speak, I think a lot of what you're going through right now can be attributed to the splitting of Forum Games. If you don't remember those mythic days before the split, IOT, as well as Mafia/NOTW and the various minigames such as elimination. After the split, Forum Games proper virtually collapsed overnight; with the main playerbase for those games now in other subforums, aside from ACs there was absolutely nothing to keep it alive. Mafia suffered similar problems; due to forum cross-pollination, IOTers served as a large fraction of Mafia-ers in 2011, and once all the IOTers went on an exodus to their own forum, what was left was unable to support Mafia on its own. Anyone who goes wandering into that subforum nowadays will see a community limping along, struggling to barely stay afloat; a far cry from the thriving community that existed just two years ago. In IOT's case, y'all managed to fly for the first year, but now you're suffering from the aftermath of the split as much as anyone. (I'll get to this in a second.)
I'm a NESer, and although I certainly wasn't active at the time, I am aware that NES went through a similar crisis in about 2007, due to much of the same reasons you're having. Well, obviously, NES still exists. Why?. In the case of NES, most of the current generation of NESes can trace itself back to a game called The World Turned Upside Down, which lasted 50+ updates in 2007-08. TWTUD was successful because of its refreshing simplicity, and I believe caused somewhat of a renewal of that forum in much the same way that grunge renewed music by ending the painful cheesiness of 80s music. Additionally, TWTUD's longevity drew in new players, and spurred them to create their own games. NESing. (Admittedly, that's an oversimplification, but it works well enough as an analogy for our purposes) The other reason NES survived is that, frankly, and I say this is the least condescending way possible, we have a greater diversity of games than y'all. This has been the case for years, at least.
How does this apply to y'all? Well, what I'm seeing in the past ~year, as I believe somebody pointed out a few posts above me, is stagnation. There's nothing new or exciting to draw anyone in. All I'm seeing, aside from sequels/reruns of older IOTs like I&B and MP, is an arms race of "lets see how complicated economic systems can get!" etc, and that isn't drawing anybody in, since it becomes less what made the IOTs I played in, back in 2011 (such as I&B1 and IOT7) fun, and more of a pure numbers game, befitting Paradox Interactive titles more than forum games run by a single person. Sequels/reruns do provide some security for the playerbase, since they draw in those players who participated in earlier iterations, but they appeal to few other people, unless they're drastically different (which, from what I see, they aren't) I lurk IOT from time to time, and aside from I&B5 (which, to be honest, I've already kind of lost interest in) there hasn't been a game that's caught my eye in quite a while.
Lastly, there's clearly been a steady exodus of players from IOT. This can be attributed to the split; y'all no longer share a playerbase with mafia, and although y'all could draw in new players, other factors meant that I've gone over meant y'all couldn't retain it. In isolation, IOT was put on a course that was inherently self-destructive. Additionally, the vibe I've been getting from here recently is that of simmering personality conflicts, that occasionally boil over, which I believe was the main reason behind the fiasco that was the General Strike Incident, not the moderation. The General Strike benefitted precisely zero people, and acted as a repellant, for reasons that are self-evident. When long-standing IOTers fight amongst each other, and this gets displaced into the forums, it benefits nobody. Keep your disputes to chat, or better yet, don't do it at all.
What I think would be a good course of action would be to petition to reverse the split and reunite Forum Games, which, in my humble (and likely disregarded) opinion, would not only help y'all, but also the Mafia/NOTW community. This is for the same reasons behind the multiple IOT-NES merger proposals; "cross-pollination," if you will, of the playerbases, which would spur innovation and an expanded player pool for y'all's own games. It's not too late to reverse the split. Forumers are a lazy bunch, and having to check multiple forums is a turn-off. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, you need the aforementioned innovation, and more simplicity. Less is more, in making games that appeal to the masses. Economic systems complex enough to need a GUI, should stay in video games with a GUI, and not stray into forum-based games. IOTs were fun once upon a time, because of their simplicity and energetic playerbase, exemplified by IOT7. Certainly complex games can exist, and do appeal to some, but they're not good with player retention and getting a widespread playerbase. And IOTs need diversity, now more than ever.
You don't have to listen to me, but I thought that an outside perspective might shed some light on y'all's problems.
SK out.
EDIT: Nedim,
I'm a NESer, and although I certainly wasn't active at the time, I am aware that NES went through a similar crisis in about 2007, due to much of the same reasons you're having. Well, obviously, NES still exists. Why?. In the case of NES, most of the current generation of NESes can trace itself back to a game called The World Turned Upside Down, which lasted 50+ updates in 2007-08. TWTUD was successful because of its refreshing simplicity, and I believe caused somewhat of a renewal of that forum in much the same way that grunge renewed music by ending the painful cheesiness of 80s music. Additionally, TWTUD's longevity drew in new players, and spurred them to create their own games. NESing. (Admittedly, that's an oversimplification, but it works well enough as an analogy for our purposes) The other reason NES survived is that, frankly, and I say this is the least condescending way possible, we have a greater diversity of games than y'all. This has been the case for years, at least.
How does this apply to y'all? Well, what I'm seeing in the past ~year, as I believe somebody pointed out a few posts above me, is stagnation. There's nothing new or exciting to draw anyone in. All I'm seeing, aside from sequels/reruns of older IOTs like I&B and MP, is an arms race of "lets see how complicated economic systems can get!" etc, and that isn't drawing anybody in, since it becomes less what made the IOTs I played in, back in 2011 (such as I&B1 and IOT7) fun, and more of a pure numbers game, befitting Paradox Interactive titles more than forum games run by a single person. Sequels/reruns do provide some security for the playerbase, since they draw in those players who participated in earlier iterations, but they appeal to few other people, unless they're drastically different (which, from what I see, they aren't) I lurk IOT from time to time, and aside from I&B5 (which, to be honest, I've already kind of lost interest in) there hasn't been a game that's caught my eye in quite a while.
Lastly, there's clearly been a steady exodus of players from IOT. This can be attributed to the split; y'all no longer share a playerbase with mafia, and although y'all could draw in new players, other factors meant that I've gone over meant y'all couldn't retain it. In isolation, IOT was put on a course that was inherently self-destructive. Additionally, the vibe I've been getting from here recently is that of simmering personality conflicts, that occasionally boil over, which I believe was the main reason behind the fiasco that was the General Strike Incident, not the moderation. The General Strike benefitted precisely zero people, and acted as a repellant, for reasons that are self-evident. When long-standing IOTers fight amongst each other, and this gets displaced into the forums, it benefits nobody. Keep your disputes to chat, or better yet, don't do it at all.
What I think would be a good course of action would be to petition to reverse the split and reunite Forum Games, which, in my humble (and likely disregarded) opinion, would not only help y'all, but also the Mafia/NOTW community. This is for the same reasons behind the multiple IOT-NES merger proposals; "cross-pollination," if you will, of the playerbases, which would spur innovation and an expanded player pool for y'all's own games. It's not too late to reverse the split. Forumers are a lazy bunch, and having to check multiple forums is a turn-off. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, you need the aforementioned innovation, and more simplicity. Less is more, in making games that appeal to the masses. Economic systems complex enough to need a GUI, should stay in video games with a GUI, and not stray into forum-based games. IOTs were fun once upon a time, because of their simplicity and energetic playerbase, exemplified by IOT7. Certainly complex games can exist, and do appeal to some, but they're not good with player retention and getting a widespread playerbase. And IOTs need diversity, now more than ever.
You don't have to listen to me, but I thought that an outside perspective might shed some light on y'all's problems.
SK out.
EDIT: Nedim,
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
SK...I've noticed people refer to IOT7 as the golden age of fun in an IOT even though the rules were meh. I could start a rehash with a new map and fine tuned map, I think everyone misses such games, but I dont want to start and then it turns into Zombie mod.
Draw muh waifu (the superior one).
Draw muh waifu (the superior one).
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
I would welcome an IOT7 remake to spark the glorious revolution.
And that is a brilliant parody, Nedim.
And that is a brilliant parody, Nedim.
Thorvald of Lym
A Little Sketchy
I agree with pretty much everything SouthernKing said. Y'all remember that editorial I wrote ten months ago, the one where Mosher calls me a stick-in-the-mud? Stepping back and looking over, I think that shift in mentality I talk about is part and parcel of the Forum Games split. I peg the start of the "hard economy" games to MTC, which if memory serves was one of the first that emerged after we got the subforum and in which I was first introduced to most of you (at least as IOTers). IOT was still fresh in the minds of the Forum Games regulars, so for the first few months we still attracted broader site interest; but as time wore on the player base was eroded to the core it is now, with the result that games are small (20 players if you're lucky) and tailored to appeal to this élite clique. We all bash "casual gamers" when they pollute published franchises, but this critical lack of regular outside participation has crippled innovation.
As I see it, we have two options: petition to reconsolidate Forum Games, or merge with NES; either way will increase traffic. If we go back to Forum Games, however, we should look at returning to the old organization with only one or two games running concurrently; running five or six games at once has routinely diluted the already shallow player pool. NES would let us keep our current structure (plus post count) and act as insurance if Forum Games is ever purged again; I honestly can't tell much of a difference between the two, except maybe the way the rules are formatted.
As I see it, we have two options: petition to reconsolidate Forum Games, or merge with NES; either way will increase traffic. If we go back to Forum Games, however, we should look at returning to the old organization with only one or two games running concurrently; running five or six games at once has routinely diluted the already shallow player pool. NES would let us keep our current structure (plus post count) and act as insurance if Forum Games is ever purged again; I honestly can't tell much of a difference between the two, except maybe the way the rules are formatted.
Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
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The bad news about a NES/IOT merger is that it would be hugely unpopular. Despite there being some advocates of a merge (myself included), there seems to be a great deal of NESers who don't want to merge with IOT and IOTers who don't want to merge with NES. Ultimately, however, the two subforums is arbitrary and a result of history rather than anything of substance; in biology this would be called convergent evolution.
The good news is that CFC isn't a democracy. One merely needs to win over the administration, not the players (who will inevitably have to either accept the merge or go elsewhere, ultimately). If we can convince the powers that be that there's no real need to keep the forums separate, then that will be the end of the matter.
It's commonly said IOT is dependent on mechanics while NES is dependent on roleplaying but I seriously question that when I look at some IOTs and some NESes.
The good news is that CFC isn't a democracy. One merely needs to win over the administration, not the players (who will inevitably have to either accept the merge or go elsewhere, ultimately). If we can convince the powers that be that there's no real need to keep the forums separate, then that will be the end of the matter.
It's commonly said IOT is dependent on mechanics while NES is dependent on roleplaying but I seriously question that when I look at some IOTs and some NESes.
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