Iraq protests

[Berzerker]

we suck

oil too

 

[Estebonrober]

Of course, once the United States implodes internally because of a socio-political population divide there unheard of since the 1850's, and their piss-poor economic management in terms of long-term vision and stability, all that, and the whole world order, will change, and Americans probably won't be able to count on much mercy or forgiveness out there.

I agree with this, but has there ever been the fall of an empire or whatever and mercy and forgiveness was all over the place? That's just not how social structures work.

 

[Patine]

I agree with this, but has there ever been the fall of an empire or whatever and mercy and forgiveness was all over the place? That's just not how social structures work.

I didn't say at all that there was any previous historical precedent of such mercy or forgiveness of fallen belligerent and abusive empires after they fall for false hopes to be drawn from.

 

[Estebonrober]

I didn't say at all that there was any previous historical precedent of such mercy or forgiveness of fallen belligerent and abusive empires after they fall for false hopes to be drawn from.

So I mean the only hope we ever had of such nonsense is the same one we have now. we have to establish and international rule of law. I agree we've done a terrible job the last 20 years, just bang up terrible. Of course in that we just resemble the rest of the world more naturally where might makes right.

 

[Kyriakos]

Now, of course, one could argue that killing Soleimani is in no way self-defence. I think it is, as he would inevitably kill more innocent people if he was left alive, and no other action was possible to make him stop killing.

People thinking in this way is what I find scary. One day you will be preemptively nuked by like-minded folk to yourself.

 

[Berzerker]

Max Blumenthal on Jimmy Dore's show, Trump really messed up

game over man... game over

and if we killed the guy while effectively carrying a white flag, ugh... thats dishonorable even if he was a cretin

 

[uppi]

Really? I'm pretty sure we agree that someone trying to kill you or others makes that someone a morally valid target for using enough violence to stop them from killing, right? I don't think your general statement is correct.

Using enough violence to stop someone from killing does not make that person a valid target for killing in general. There might be less violent options and the moral obligation is to explore these first. If you consider someone a valid target for killing, you have skipped this step, which I consider evil.

Now, of course, one could argue that killing Soleimani is in no way self-defence. I think it is, as he would inevitably kill more innocent people if he was left alive, and no other action was possible to make him stop killing.

1) You have no proof at all that killing him would protect a single innocent person. For all we know, his successor might kill as many people or even more people than he would have
2) The USA unilaterally walked away from the negotiation table, cancelled a deal that was supposed to stabilize the situation and did quite a lot to promote conflict. Claiming there there was no other action possible is quite disingenuous.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Of course, once the United States implodes internally because of a socio-political population divide there unheard of since the 1850's, and their piss-poor economic management in terms of long-term vision and stability, all that, and the whole world order, will change, and Americans probably won't be able to count on much mercy or forgiveness out there.

Your prediction of the US future is epic fantasy. Sure over time our current leading role in world affairs will diminish and we will be replaced by another, but don't hold your breadth.

 

[Estebonrober]

Not to mention that people have been making predictions of the US's "imminent collapse" for decades now and it still hasn't happened. It's like those doomsday loons always going on about how the end is nigh. The sad thing is they will keep saying it and when it eventually does come to pass, they'll all clamor on about how right they were all along.

I mean this is true about everything though lol.

 

[cardgame]

I agree with this, but has there ever been the fall of an empire or whatever and mercy and forgiveness was all over the place? That's just not how social structures work.

Has there ever been an empire that deserved mercy and forgiveness?

 

[Patine]

Your prediction of the US future is epic fantasy. Sure over time our current leading role in world affairs will diminish and we will be replaced by another, but don't hold your breadth.

Not to mention that people have been making predictions of the US's "imminent collapse" for decades now and it still hasn't happened. It's like those doomsday loons always going on about how the end is nigh. The sad thing is they will keep saying it and when it eventually does come to pass, they'll all clamor on about how right they were all along.

Where did I use the word "imminent," "immediate," or "short-term." Another problem here is that many, many people, even in high government and economics, have gotten so used to becoming short-term thinkers, and pushing that viewpoint on every one, they just assume that every viewpoint or prediction is AUTOMATICALLY going to short-term one by default, because long-term thinking, outside science fiction, has become so alien to many people. This is another Achilles' heel of a lot of society and leadership today. But the leadership and vision of the People's Republic of China, which is based on patience and long-term thinking, is rising ascendant and preparing to overtake us in the West, just at a much slower clip than many in the West are aware of or can catch. I try to view things in the long-term, when possible, but I often short-term qualitives added arbitrarily and unbidden to my statements to force a "reckoning and sensibility" from the viewpoints of many modern listeners and readers.

 

[Modder_Mode]

So in your view it is ok for other countries to assassinate the president of the US or the vice president? Or is it in this case not right because the US has a better legal system which... obviously never will jail any president for being a war-criminal
Blair never did any jail time either. In fact he has been back in tv and giving lectures for some time now. This iranian general, on the other hand, is now dead.

No, not at all, I think it's wrong to kill anybody, no matter what the individual has done maybe there is exceptions, I don't know? All I am saying is that when Obama ordered the assassination of Bin Laden it was meet with cheer, Trump has done the same thing and met with jeer and rightfully so.

The consequences of Trump doing this are far outreaching, it probably won't be the US that suffers in the long term but Israel and some other Middle Eastern countries, this is not a good outcome, the only good outcome would be the people overthrowing the ruling theocracy.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

As long as Israel takes the brunt of it

 

[Modder_Mode]

As long as Israel takes the brunt of it

You're obviously one of those eye for an eye type characters? It wouldn't surprise me actually...

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You're obviously one of those eye for an eye type characters? It wouldn't surprise me actually...

They can enjoy the fruits of their labor, after all this was most likely done to appease them.

And please, Israel isn't some poor, benighted innocent party in this, they've taken actions that amount to war, not just against Iran.

So spare me your pity party over one of the most powerful countries in the region, backed by the most powerful country on the earth, they're complicit in this whole ****

 

[red_elk]

All I am saying is that when Obama ordered the assassination of Bin Laden it was meet with cheer, Trump has done the same thing...

Except he didn't. Bin Laden was a worldwide recognized terrorist who took responsibility for multiple attacks.
Soleimani was a military official arbitrarily labeled by USA as a "bad guy". In fact he wasn't any "worse" than people who killed him.

 

[Modder_Mode]

They can enjoy the fruits of their labor, after all this was most likely done to appease them.

And please, Israel isn't some poor, benighted innocent party in this, they've taken actions that amount to war, not just against Iran.

So spare me your pity party over one of the most powerful countries in the region, backed by the most powerful country on the earth, they're complicit in this whole ****

When you make comments like that, it makes your thought process just as bad and infantile as the terrorists who themselves also believe in an eye for an eye....

Usually, when the Supreme leader of a country threatens the very existence of a country and it's people with total and utter annihilation, it's probably going to be taken as hostile and a declaration of war?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Israel has nuclear weapons, they're not under any sort of existential threat, especially not in comparison to Iran.

 

[Modder_Mode]

Except he didn't. Bin Laden was a worldwide recognized terrorist who took responsibility for multiple attacks.
Soleimani was a military official arbitrarily labeled by USA as a "bad guy". In fact he wasn't any "worse" than people who killed him.

Which is what Soleimani was....take a peek at what he was getting up too. It still doesn't justify killing them.

 

[Modder_Mode]

Israel has nuclear weapons, they're not under any sort of existential threat, especially not in comparison to Iran.

Being surrounded by hostile countries who's people avow for the death of Jews and Israel is not an existential threat? They openly celebrate the murder of Israel citizens by naming streets after terrorists, they bake cakes and hand out slices to the people after terrorist attacks, the families of suicide bombers receive financial payments after terrorist attacks....but of course there is no "real" threat to Israel because the terrorists are victims of this horrible Israeli regime and the Palestinians have nothing to answer for in the whole mess....