Iraq protests

[El_Machinae]

I'd mostly be pissed that Trump created the necessary conditions for this tragedy if I were them. I am mostly pissed about that and I'm completely detached from what happens over there.

Well, NATO allies can be pretty irked that they weren't given real heads-up that Trump was going to muddle the picture more. I don't know how much defense Canada's state department could have done to reduce risks to their citizens, but ...

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Hmmmn, that's because they're taking advantage of freedom of religion. It's private people, in a free country, doing bad things. Getting a tax-deduction, sure, but it's still going to be worse in a theocracy that is dedicated to violence against queer people. The exports from nearly any religious institution is going to be a mixed bag, depending on how the faith meets their partisan bias. We have seen enough faiths successfully update their beliefs on LGBTQ issues that we know that it's something deeper that people aren't capable of 'updating'.

You are aware that some American-based religious groups have pushed for (and gotten passed) some severe anti-LGBTQ laws in African nations? I believe in at least one country they were even able to pass the death penalty against gay men.

----------

Today it was revealed that the US attempted but failed to assassinate another Iranian Quds Force leader inside Yemen at the same time as Suleimani.

 

[El_Machinae]

You are aware that some American-based religious groups have pushed for (and gotten passed) some severe anti-LGBTQ laws in African nations? I believe in at least one country they were even able to pass the death penalty against gay men.

Yes, I know these things. It's odious, but it's not 'America'. It's Americans, sure. But the only real government support they get is the tax write off.

 

[Estebonrober]

You are aware that some American-based religious groups have pushed for (and gotten passed) some severe anti-LGBTQ laws in African nations? I believe in at least one country they were even able to pass the death penalty against gay men.

----------

Today it was revealed that the US attempted but failed to assassinate another Iranian Quds Force leader inside Yemen at the same time as Suleimani.

National Prayer Breakfast go!

 

[FriendlyFire]

Here we go again

U.S. Unsuccessfully Tried Killing a Second Iranian Military Official

The U.S. military attempted to kill a senior Iranian military official in Yemen on the same day a drone strike killed Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani.
The plan shows that the White House had a broader aim in mind than was previously known: stopping Iran from carrying out proxy wars in other countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

 

[Truthy]

@hobbsyoyo (and anyone else interested) Jack Goldsmith was on Preet Bharara's podcast "Stay Tuned" a few days ago and had interesting comments on the legality of the Soleimani strike (in short: he thinks it was totally legal). He also talked about his Jimmy Hoffa book like we talked about a few weeks ago in the movies thread.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thank you for the recommendation. I'm always short of good podcasts to listen to on bike rides and walks so I'll check it out!

 

[BCheek]

Did I also forget to mention that Bin Laden was a CIA asset during the war in Afghanistan vs the Soviet and also in the Balkan wars?

 

[Truthy]

Did I also forget to mention that Bin Laden was a CIA asset during the war in Afghanistan vs the Soviet and also in the Balkan wars?

No he wasn't. See Steve Coll's book "Ghost Wars."

 

[EnglishEdward]

It would make sense for the 737 to have been shot down by a mistaken AA missile launch. But I'll take more than an unclear video and word coming from the people with the crystal balls to establish that.

The Iranian government appears to have owned up to that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621

Iran plane crash: Ukrainian jet was 'unintentionally' shot down

 

[luiz]

I'd still take my chances with them over with the jihadi sunni head-cutters exported, armed and financed by Saudi Arabia and the US. Not that either is a good place.

Iran, by the way, still has half a million christians living there. Syria still has christians living where the syrian government rules.
There are no christians in Saudi Arabia. But somehow Saudi Arabia is under no sanctions even while being the number one sponsor of terrorism worldwide by casualties caused. Instead they are dear allies of the "west".

Actually, while Saudi Arabia of course has one of the worst LGBTQ rights record on the planet, it's significantly better than Iran in that regard. Gay people usually get prison sentences when caught, some might get lashes. But there are no recorded cases of someone being executed just for homosexuality in the kingdom, unlike Iran, where they abound.

As for Christians, while they are still second class citizens in Iran, they are indeed tolerated. The religious minorities that are persecuted furiously are those deemed to be "polytheistic", such as a the Baha'i. They are treated like animals.

And what cover up is that? The crash is so far being investigated strictly according to international agreements and guidelines. Iran's claim that it was not a missile will either be proven or disprove in due time. They allowed access to the site, had international experts in, and published ample evidence already about the crash in the way of film and pictures. If that was a "cover up" is must have been the most amazingly incompetent ever.

Don't be disingenuous. Iran denied flat out that any responsibility on their part was even "scientifically possible" (their exact words). They bulldozed the site and tried to hide all evidence for as long as they could. Only when overwhelming evidence was presented by multiple foreign governments and their guilt was already established beyond any shadow od doubt did they start changing the tune.

 

[Cheetah]

Trump might not care, but the way he is wrecking what is left of the reputation of the USA will be a strategic disadvantage in the future either way. The next president can recover some of that, but not all of that. Some of the damage will stay for the future.

I think you are underestimating the hegemonic position the US is in. Bush destroyed a lot of the US' reputation in the same way (starting an illegal war, literally kidnapping people from its allies countries, operating black sites, etc.], and it was all easily restored by Obama – not through efforts, which he also did do – but merely for not being Bush. Whoever replaces Trump will find it just as easy.

Unless the EU steps up to create an alternative hegemon, the position of the US is too powerful to be dragged down by a bit of wrecked reputation.

First, it is not fair to blame the Iranians for all those deaths. There were plenty of other powers (including the USA) involved as well. Second, what is your endgame here? Killing an important Iranian here and there is only going to stabilize the current regime. And even if you kill a million people to remove it, you still need Iranians that can ensure peace afterwards. If you discredit those who could potentially do that at every turn, they won't have a chance to do that.

Assad has his part of the blame, yes. To some extent Russia, Turkey and the US, too. But without Iran Assad would not have been able to hold on, and the civil war would have ended much better.

Putting the blame for half a million dead on Assad and Iran isn't only my understanding. It's also the genereal consensus among Arab and Muslim activists and human rights advocates.

It is easy too question the legitimacy of the current Iraqi government, but blatantly ignoring their sovereignty is not going to get you a better one. All you do is strengthening the grip Iran has on Iraq.

Not if one cripples Iran's grip while violating the Iraqi sovereignty. Have you noticed how some of the militias have spoken out of line with the Iranian message lately?

Killing people is not very useful, either.

Killing people can be plenty useful. Whether its ethical or moral or political or strategical all depends on the context.

 

[Cheetah]

The Iranian government appears to have owned up to that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621

It's good they finally owned up to it. Guess we have one more member in the «We only kind of did it, and it wasn't really our fault» club, together with the Soviet Union, the United States, and Russia... Airliners really need to be more prudent on where they put their flight paths, I think.

Now if Iran could also release those who were arrested after taking pictures of the event and aftermath...

 

[Yeekim]

Respect to Iran for owning up to their mistake.

 

[EnglishEdward]

..it wasn't really our fault» club, together with the Soviet Union, the United States, and Russia...

Quite so. That club also includes Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114

 

[Estebonrober]

resident Donald Trump privately told associates that his upcoming impeachment trial factored heavily into his decision to kill top Iranian General Qassem Soleimani, The Wall Street Journal reports.

“Trump, after the strike, told associates he was under pressure to deal with Gen. Soleimani from GOP senators he views as important supporters in his coming impeachment trial in the Senate,” associates of the president told the outlet.

https://www.salon.com/2020/01/10/tr...ssure-from-upcoming-impeachment-trial-report/

Wag that dog!

Also is President Trump responsible for killing 63 Canadians? He started this whole cycle of escalation. Does he hold any responsibility? Or is it only the trigger man in Tehran?

 

[EnglishEdward]

Also is President Trump responsible for killing 63 Canadians? He started this whole cycle of escalation. Does he hold any responsibility?

Answer = NO

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Airliners really need to be more prudent on where they put their flight paths, I think.

And countries need to be more responsible for controlling and shutting down their airspace in times of conflict.

 

[Cheetah]

Also is President Trump responsible for killing 63 Canadians? He started this whole cycle of escalation. Does he hold any responsibility? Or is it only the trigger man in Tehran?

Only if President Obama is responsible for 500,000 deaths in Syria.

In other words: no.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Only if President Obama is responsible for 500,000 deaths in Syria.

In other words: no.

What?