Iraq: The mistake and the true solution that has no chance

[El_Machinae]

Surround the city, give them 72 hours to surrender and civilians to turn themselves in, and bomb the crap out of the city.

What exactly are you going to do with 500,000 civilians?

 

[JohnRM]

Ok there are still a few problems they are

1. Fallujah had atleast 600,000 Pop of which only a few thousend were terrorists we gave them 72 hours and about 400,000 people including most of the terrorists were able to get out leaving 200,000 civilians who either were not allowed to leave by the terrorists or couldn't afford to drive etc or were to proud to leave their homes.

In the specific instance that I was talking about, it was a section of the city, not the entire city itself.

2. If we give them a warning then the terrorists themselves will just leave.

And they will be detained, WITHOUT THEIR WEAPONS AND SUPPLIES, possibly be identified as terrorists and jailed.

3. Why do you think these people hate America? Because of the last city we bombed. Its a case of kill one then three more pop up. Although we could kill every muslim in the world possibley I donb't believe that would be worth it. Besides at that point its genocide.

I know, its our fault. What did WE do to make them hate us. Blah blah blah. So, you want us to just let the one terrorist kill the rest of us rather than fight, cause you fear having to kill three more?

4. Unlike Germany terrorists don't have factorys to bomb they are extremely decentralized and theres no garntee that we could even kill them all this way.

This is the most true thing that I've heard from your side. HOWEVER...
Those few times that they do centralize, lets take advantage of the situation and wipe them out! We can't kill them all this way, but we can eliminate the schools that teach hatred to their youth. We can kill as many as possible. We can make their lives so miserable and desperate that they can only worry about living past the current day, rather than killing westerners.

5. Isreal tried bombing the **** out of Hezbollah but it really didn't help they just dug in.

Incorrect. They were already dug in after years and years of failed UN resolutions, peace deals, and cease fires that solved nothing.

6. Try thinking of the civilians as hostages. When someone takes hostages we doin't just blow up the building we try to save the hostages. This is the same thing on a larger scale.

I will kill a few hostages and their terrorist captors in order to save hundreds or thousands of other civilians whom they will kill. Are you going to let these terrorists use human shields to cover themselves and let them slaughter anyone else at will?

7. If there ever was a city with only armed terrorists in it I'de have no problem with bombing it into the stone age. However there is no such thing.

I think in principle we agree you just have the facts wrong and this is confusing the rest of us. To no end.

If you say so.

 

[JohnRM]

What exactly are you going to do with 500,000 civilians?

Process them. Photographs, names, etc.

Younger children (20 - 35%): Could be terrorists, but not nearly as much of a threat. Let them go.

Disabled People & Older Women (15 - 20%): Not likely active terrorists. Let them go.

Other specific low-risk groups (?%): Let them go.

Those able-bodied men, roto-router, don't stop till you reach the back of their teeth! You may not be able to detain all of them for very long, but you will find SOME obvious terrorists and you will seperate them from their guns, bombs, and supplies, which you can then destroy.

 

[nc-1701]

In the specific instance that I was talking about, it was a section of the city, not the entire city itself.




And they will be detained, WITHOUT THEIR WEAPONS AND SUPPLIES, possibly be identified as terrorists and jailed.




I know, its our fault. What did WE do to make them hate us. Blah blah blah. So, you want us to just let the one terrorist kill the rest of us rather than fight, cause you fear having to kill three more?




This is the most true thing that I've heard from your side. HOWEVER...
Those few times that they do centralize, lets take advantage of the situation and wipe them out! We can't kill them all this way, but we can eliminate the schools that teach hatred to their youth. We can kill as many as possible. We can make their lives so miserable and desperate that they can only worry about living past the current day, rather than killing westerners.




Incorrect. They were already dug in after years and years of failed UN resolutions, peace deals, and cease fires that solved nothing.




I will kill a few hostages and their terrorist captors in order to save hundreds or thousands of other civilians whom they will kill. Are you going to let these terrorists use human shields to cover themselves and let them slaughter anyone else at will?




If you say so.

1. Ok if you can truly verify that there are just terrorists there then bomb away.

2. How exactly do you detain and search half a million people?

3. Its easier for us to win if we can kill them without spawning new ones in the process.

4. Exactly when it does happen we take advantage but it happens so rarely it can hardly be called a strategy in and of itself.

5. The point is they were able to dig in and thus the bombing barely hurt them. (same happend in Tora Bora)

6. Yes I agreebut What if its 10,000 hostages? 50,000? 500,000? A million? You cant kill 10,000 people to get 1 terrorist.

7. Perhaps not I hope we atleast have the same goal. (A safe America)

 

[bathsheba666]

Process them. Photographs, names, etc.

Younger children (20 - 35%): Could be terrorists, but not nearly as much of a threat. Let them go.

Disabled People & Older Women (15 - 20%): Not likely active terrorists. Let them go.

Other specific low-risk groups (?%): Let them go.

Those able-bodied men, roto-router, don't stop till you reach the back of their teeth! You may not be able to detain all of them for very long, but you will find SOME obvious terrorists and you will seperate them from their guns, bombs, and supplies, which you can then destroy.

Ah, process them.
Err, what does this process involve exactly?
(To be specific, define 'etc.'. Alternatively, let me know the magic involved in knowing names and appearances)

How many Guantanamos are you going to have to build to cover up the complete lack of knowledge as to what is going on?

Define your 'specific' low-risk groups,
and define the process whereby you are going to allocate a name and photograph either in or out of these groups.

Otherwise, people may assume you have as little grasp of what is occurring as your administration.

 

[El_Machinae]

lol, this is too funny.

Impoverish, starve, and imprision 500,000 people. The people who fight back get labeled as terrorist.

This is bordering on evil.

 

[.Shane.]

lol, this is too funny.

Impoverish, starve, and imprision 500,000 people. The people who fight back get labeled as terrorist.

This is bordering on evil.

lol, why do you guys even bother arguing with him? I find the best way to deal w/ people who have completely lunatic views on things like this is just to ignore them as attention is what they seem to thrive on most.

 

[nc-1701]

lol, why do you guys even bother arguing with him? I find the best way to deal w/ people who have completely lunatic views on things like this is just to ignore them as attention is what they seem to thrive on most.

Good point thats why I have decided to stay away from the "KOs of creationism" thread no point talking to those people. I guess the same thing is probably in order here as well.

 

[dh_epic]

And what is that long-term harm?

Let me give you just one of many scenarios.

America invites everyone to evacuate Fallujah, and takes everyone prisoner who does. They then proceed to turn it into a crater. In doing so, they kill 100,000 people, and imprison another 100,000, with numerous escaping in the ensuing chaos.

The US government then must spend 4 billion dollars per year holding these prisoners. Yes, many of them may very well be terrorists. But many of the others are innocents. How do we decipher one from the other? Wrapped up in bureaucracy, the people are held there with seemingly no end in sight, and there are allogations of torture.

As if the 100,000 dead in Fallujah aren't enough to galvanize extermism in the region. If even 1% of the population were actively trying to kill Americans, an additional 2% of the population sympathetic to the anti-American cause would join up in a heartbeat. And the additional 20% of the population who was tolerant but skeptical of America would surely shift to being sympathizers with the same terrorists we were trying to destroy. And those who were supportive of America would shift to skeptical.

In other words, the entire region would take one step to the right. Not just Iraq. Add Syria. Iran. Saudi Arabia. The government in Iraq would collapse under the sudden shift in opinion, as would the modest gains for Democracy and Peace over the last 20 years in Egypt and Lebanon. Suddenly, a theocratic regime that's ready to defend itself from America at all costs looks very appealing to a lot of citizens.

In the meantime, pick your favorite -- Russia, China, North Korea, Iran... heck, pick two or three. Eager to leverage the political situation for more power, they condemn the American attacks, calling it one of the worst atrocities on human life this generation. Enough people believe them. They beat the drum of propaganda, suggesting that America has no value for human life, and is really only trying to mask its thirst for blood, power, and oil. In other words, just outside the middle east you'd see everyone else take a big step to the right too.

European powers would have to at least remain questionable of our actions. While they obviously wouldn't endorse terrorists and dictators, they would not endorse the bombing and the prisons. From France to Germany, from Spain to Turkey, they would demand we release the prisoners. Essentially, we'd have lost the political support of key allies. That political support is what prevents us from being completely isolated.

... and now, much more isolated, we'd have a lot fewer allies. This isn't just important for projecting a unified front against extremists, but it's also important for our economy. Imagine what OPEC could do to us, and they'd have the moral position to do so. This in combination with the huge costs of an increasingly deteriorating situation in Iraq, we'd be economically screwed.

... and with much more antipathy towards America all around the world, we'd have much fewer allies and many more enemies if it ever came to violence. As nations around the world elect anti-American governments, we'd have one hell of a time trying to stop them. And as the economy of China grows, they could play the situation any way they'd damn well want to.

Could you really think that turning even a single city into a crater would make us safer?

 

[nc-1701]

Let me give you just one of many scenarios.

America invites everyone to evacuate Fallujah, and takes everyone prisoner who does. They then proceed to turn it into a crater. In doing so, they kill 100,000 people, and imprison another 100,000, with numerous escaping in the ensuing chaos.

The US government then must spend 4 billion dollars per year holding these prisoners. Yes, many of them may very well be terrorists. But many of the others are innocents. How do we decipher one from the other? Wrapped up in bureaucracy, the people are held there with seemingly no end in sight, and there are allogations of torture.

As if the 100,000 dead in Fallujah aren't enough to galvanize extermism in the region. If even 1% of the population were actively trying to kill Americans, an additional 2% of the population sympathetic to the anti-American cause would join up in a heartbeat. And the additional 20% of the population who was tolerant but skeptical of America would surely shift to being sympathizers with the same terrorists we were trying to destroy. And those who were supportive of America would shift to skeptical.

In other words, the entire region would take one step to the right. Not just Iraq. Add Syria. Iran. Saudi Arabia. The government in Iraq would collapse under the sudden shift in opinion, as would the modest gains for Democracy and Peace over the last 20 years in Egypt and Lebanon. Suddenly, a theocratic regime that's ready to defend itself from America at all costs looks very appealing to a lot of citizens.

In the meantime, pick your favorite -- Russia, China, North Korea, Iran... heck, pick two or three. Eager to leverage the political situation for more power, they condemn the American attacks, calling it one of the worst atrocities on human life this generation. Enough people believe them. They beat the drum of propaganda, suggesting that America has no value for human life, and is really only trying to mask its thirst for blood, power, and oil. In other words, just outside the middle east you'd see everyone else take a big step to the right too.

European powers would have to at least remain questionable of our actions. While they obviously wouldn't endorse terrorists and dictators, they would not endorse the bombing and the prisons. From France to Germany, from Spain to Turkey, they would demand we release the prisoners. Essentially, we'd have lost the political support of key allies. That political support is what prevents us from being completely isolated.

... and now, much more isolated, we'd have a lot fewer allies. This isn't just important for projecting a unified front against extremists, but it's also important for our economy. Imagine what OPEC could do to us, and they'd have the moral position to do so. This in combination with the huge costs of an increasingly deteriorating situation in Iraq, we'd be economically screwed.

... and with much more antipathy towards America all around the world, we'd have much fewer allies and many more enemies if it ever came to violence. As nations around the world elect anti-American governments, we'd have one hell of a time trying to stop them. And as the economy of China grows, they could play the situation any way they'd damn well want to.

Could you really think that turning even a single city into a crater would make us safer?

Binggo!

(10char)

 

[CartesianFart]

After a few month off in civfanatic OT i am not amazed to still see pseudo-statecraftmen making ridiculous solution how to solve the sectarian problems for US backed Iraqi government.

The only solution is right under our nose,military Dictatorship based on some of the policies the was sucessfully done by Alberto Fujimori of Peru.All the problem will ceases and the Central government can restore order not allowing armed militias and tribal warlords making their own laws and their primitive brand of justice.

 

[Winner]

The only solution is right under our nose,Military Dictatorship! All the problem will ceases and the Central government can restore order not allowing armed militias and tribal warlords making their own laws and their primitive brand of justice.

Joke?

There is no person strong enough to enforce such a rule. Iraq regressed to a failed state. The best thing would be to build a wall around it and wait some 50 years. Unfortunately, this is not an option, so the US will have to deal with this mess.

And IMHO Americans deserve it. You know, who saw the wind...

 

[CartesianFart]

Joke?

There is no person strong enough to enforce such a rule. Iraq regressed to a failed state. The best thing would be to build a wall around it and wait some 50 years. Unfortunately, this is not an option, so the US will have to deal with this mess.

It is too early to say that this project is a failure,but i have to agree that the new Iraqi government is too weak and powerless to stop these downtrodden Sunni insurgents and Shites deathsquads from killing themselves.It should of been a military dictatorship with some legal representation from some good area of the country with some simularity of what is going on in Pakistan with Perev Musharraf.Stabilty and order should be first not some nonsense rushing the democratic ideal in Iraq which it takes a generation or 2 for the people to understand what liberty really mean.The legacy of Saddam autocratic rule should be continued until the transistion is complete,i say about 20 years or so.

And IMHO Americans deserve it. You know, who saw the wind...

huh

 

[nc-1701]

It is too early to say that this project is a failure,but i have to agree that the new Iraqi government is too weak and powerless to stop these downtrodden Sunni insurgents and Shites deathsquads from killing themselves.It should of been a military dictatorship with some legal representation from some good area of the country with some simularity of what is going on in Pakistan with Perev Musharraf.Stabilty and order should be first not some nonsense rushing the democratic ideal in Iraq which it takes a generation or 2 for the people to understand what liberty really mean.The legacy of Saddam autocratic rule should be continued until the transistion is complete,i say about 20 years or so.

huh

Saying we deserve it really doesn't help the situation. Even if it is true.

edit; Shoot wrong quote.

 

[Winner]

huh

There was a decent military dictatorship before you undertook your little Mesopotamian adventure (you=Americans, you're an American I presume ). Now, when you see that you failed miserably, you want to run away from it. Very responsible. Forgive me my amusement, but what else should I say?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Why did you just elaborate on everything I already said?

Because you concluded that most of the artillary/bombing was wasted on the jungle.

Strange how you fail to connect the increasing deaths and esclation of the Vietnam war under Nixion as cutting and running. Nor did you connect the failed interventions / incursions into Laos and Cambodia when calling for the Invasion and occupation of NVA.

It seems you history and understanding of Vietnam is very lacking.

 

[CartesianFart]

There was a decent military dictatorship before you undertook your little Mesopotamian adventure (you=Americans, you're an American I presume ). Now, when you see that you failed miserably, you want to run away from it. Very responsible. Forgive me my amusement, but what else should I say?

I am getting tired of individuals thinking that this so called Mesopotamian adventure that (Winner here so pompously said ) is a failure.The only failure in the making is the opportunistic democrats and the misguided antiwar lobby in Washington convincing the American people that we should elect them and withdraw our troops which in fact the wrong thing(and selfish act if you ask me) due to our noble goal toward the Iraqi people who want freedom.

 

[dh_epic]

40,000 iraqi civilians dead, 2600 of ours dead, 300 billion dollars spent plus 200 million dollars a day, a government more closely aligned with Iran, civil war, and none of the things that they said being true (greeted as liberators, oil revenues paying for reconstruction)...

... you tell me how this ISN'T a failure.

 

[Xanikk999]

40,000 iraqi civilians dead, 2600 of ours dead, 300 billion dollars spent plus 200 million dollars a day, a government more closely aligned with Iran, civil war, and none of the things that they said being true (greeted as liberators, oil revenues paying for reconstruction)...

... you tell me how this ISN'T a failure.

I agree with you but to be fair, at first many of the iraqis did greet us as liberators, at least until things detariorated.

 

[BasketCase]

40,000 iraqi civilians dead, 2600 of ours dead, 300 billion dollars spent plus 200 million dollars a day, a government more closely aligned with Iran, civil war, and none of the things that they said being true (greeted as liberators, oil revenues paying for reconstruction)...

... you tell me how this ISN'T a failure.

Letsee: we deposed a dictator, gave the Iraqis elections (something they haven't had in at least 25 years), Saddam's TWO MILLION dead (which is a lot more than 42,600 if you don't have a pocket calculator handy) will now get their day in court, Saddam won't be starting any more wars (he did start two, after all), and the world community is spending a lot less right now than it ended up spending to deal with Saddam and fix all the damage he caused during his tenure.

You just got trumped big time.