Is 30 the new 18?

Tahuti

Writing Deity
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
9,492
Name says it all. Especially for men, there seems to be an increasing trend towards late graduation from college, late marriage and everything. For all intents and purposes, people are increasingly less mature. Or is this just a false observation?

Discuss...
 
For all intents and purposes, people are increasingly less mature.

Marriage is not an indicator of maturity. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. Same goes for kids, a house, an education, and so on..

People are taking longer to do "the things you're supposed to when you're an adult" because all those things are a huge investment of not only money but also time. You don't necessarily have to follow the same old formula if you want a fulfilling life - high school -> college -> marriage -> house -> kids is only one of the paths you can take.

There are less societal pressures to follow that path and people are taking advantage of it.
 
Meh, marriage age doesn't say much other than the age at which people were getting married and the relative local economic situation for that specific region. To elucidate: if you're family is starving because the weather has gone balls up and you don't have enough food to feed your family, you aren't bloody well going to add another mouth to feed, are you? For example, at some points in the 1500s in England it was in the upper 20s, owing largely to a string of very bad harvests in the 1550s and 60s (Possibly 40s, I'd have to wade through a large stack of documents to find the actual figures). (anyway) Does that make 1500s Englishmen less mature than...whatever you're comparing this perceived loss of maturity to? My point is, average marriage age goes up and down all the time, and unless you're looking at arbitrary cultural changes over time or local economic history, this thread has no point.
 
Marriage is not an indicator of maturity. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. Same goes for kids, a house, an education, and so on..

Marriage itself isn't, I'm well aware of that. But it does requires a certain maturity from the individuals involved, and the premise of the OP whether this is taking longer than otherwise.

That said, I more or less believe that societal changes (not related it at all to the premise of the OP) also have contributed to the changing marriage ages, much like Owen Glyndwr noted.

I do think ParkChungHee may be on to something with his reply though.
 
There are alot more barriers now, apparently even basic jobs in America require a college degree or so I've heard.
 
I don't feel like it. It's only 9 days until I'm 30 and I already feel old!
 
Name says it all. Especially for men, there seems to be an increasing trend towards late graduation from college, late marriage and everything. For all intents and purposes, people are increasingly less mature. Or is this just a false observation?

Discuss...

The conventional criteria that were commonly used by sociologists as indicators of adulthood and independence used to be:
-Graduating
-Moving out of the parents household
-Getting a job (full time, living wage etc.)
-Getting married
-Procreating

All of these are in some way strongly connected to materialism and conformity. And those two are both way beyond their prime.
And it's not like everybody actually did this "in the olden days". People often grew up into dependent employment in which they stayed all their lifes. People suffered all kinds of dictates regarding marriage. And i don't have to tell you about education and housing.
Essentially it's a rather short period where it was considered "normal" for everyone to do all this by their mid 20s.

Also note that for at least one of these the "deterioration" is anything but new.
So are 30 year olds now as clueless as 18 year olds then?
Probably the other way around.
Only that demands were much smaller back then.

Back then the 18 year olds and 30 year olds alike got 10 out of 10 and for the rest of it did what they were told to do. And they were told in the first place.
Today we enjoy the benefits of living in the age of individualism, and 30 year olds get 20 out of 100 and look like colossal fools.
 
I always saw getting married when you're 18 as a sign of immaturity.
 
The conventional criteria that were commonly used by sociologists as indicators of adulthood and independence used to be:
-Graduating
-Moving out of the parents household
-Getting a job (full time, living wage etc.)
-Getting married
-Procreating

All of these are in some way strongly connected to materialism and conformity. And those two are both way beyond their prime.

I think that's probably the most illuminating observation on the topic yet.
 
Marriage itself isn't, I'm well aware of that. But it does requires a certain maturity from the individuals involved, and the premise of the OP whether this is taking longer than otherwise.
I'd say it kinda the other way around...people don't marry later now because they mature later, but they married in a less mature state in the past. Only a few decades ago 'living in sin' was frowned upon of not outright banned in many places. Today it's seen as a perfectly valid lifestyle in most western countries. So for many there's no need to marry at 18/20 just because you want to be together.

I, for example, got my bachelor 'late' (at 29) and married late (at 31), and I don't feel either of these decisions had anything to do with lack of maturity. I just saw no point in marrying earlier.
 
Contraception.

Cheap, effective and widely available contraception is easily the biggest driver of social change in the West in the 20th century, and I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that, given its vast explanatory power.
 
Contraception has nothing to do with delayed marriage (still overwhelming done before children), late graduation from college or otherwise delaying other life mile stones.

Prosperity is the reason, both for the current generations and the previous ones. The previous generations were so well off relative to their own mothers and fathers that they can afford to let their children wallow in self indulgence/self improvement far longer.

Additionally, so many young people are prosperous early in life now that they no longer need to get married in order to accomplish certain goals related to combining efforts with another. Thant, and technology has made certain things easier that running a household without kids (and sometimes with) does not require a dual effort.

Then of course there is a change in what those life milestones are. This happens with every generation.
 
Contraception has nothing to do with marriage (still overwhelming done before children), late graduation from college or otherwise delaying other life mile stones.
Contraception has everything to do with all of those things. Indeed, the entire purpose of contraception is to "delay life milestones" of getting married and having children, both for men and for women. It's a well established empirical fact that the contraceptive pill's advent in the 1960s caused women, especially university-educated women, to marry later, particularly from the 1970s onwards. It obviously also caused them to have children later; women on the pill could choose when they wanted to have children. Women can now choose to go to university and pursue a career of their own, instead of getting married and having children. More women in employment, and especially more women with a university education, meant that the job market tightened, competition for work increased, so men had to (a) get more education than before to remain competitive, and (b) work for less money. Both of these things mean that other milestones have to be pushed back, too, such as buying a house, being promoted to a management position, or retiring. Men achieving their milestones later is a direct corollary of women being able to achieve their milestones at all. And we're all better off for it, too.

There are obviously other factors, such as the decline of manufacturing, or the increase in the cost of homeownership, but the biggest one by far is the ability for women to delay childbirth and pursue careers of their own.

@metatron: Contraception can also explain the destruction of that "American Dream" kind of conformity, c.f. the 1960s.
 
Contraception has everything to do with all of those things. Indeed, the entire purpose of contraception is to "delay life milestones" of getting married and having children, both for men and for women. It's a well established empirical fact that the contraceptive pill's advent in the 1960s caused women, especially university-educated women, to marry later, particularly from the 1970s onwards. It obviously also caused them to have children later; women on the pill could choose when they wanted to have children.

Correlation /= causation.

Sexual freedom is certainly a boon from contraception (both men and women, women are not the only beneficiary of the pill from a contraception standpoint), but that still doesn't explain delayed marriages unless you think women were getting married earlier in the past because they were getting knocked up. As I said then, just like now, the vast majority of people get married before having children, not after. Also even now most couples use contraception to be free of children for years after marriage, or in other words people don't get married solely to raise children.

The only affect children have on women and marriage is that 1.) having children is no longer considered an end all be all life milestone hence there is less emphasis on knocking that out before or in place of other things and 2.) for health an biological reasons women are still pressured to have kids before a certain point, but that point is continuously pushed back by medical advances.

So no, contraception does not explain marrying later (as if it is women solely driving this phenomenon in the first place)

Women can now choose to go to university and pursue a career of their own, instead of getting married and having children.

That would mean access to education is the driver of later marriage, not contraception.

More women in employment, and especially more women with a university education, meant that the job market tightened, competition for work increased, so men had to (a) get more education than before to remain competitive, and (b) work for less money. Both of these things mean that other milestones have to be pushed back, too, such as buying a house, being promoted to a management position, or retiring. Men achieving their milestones later is a direct corollary of women being able to achieve their milestones at all. And we're all better off for it, too.

Agreed, but also has nothing to do with contraception.

There are obviously other factors, such as the decline of manufacturing, or the increase in the cost of homeownership, but the biggest one by far is the ability for women to delay childbirth and pursue careers of their own.

Pursue careers of their own, sure, but delaying childbirth not at all. Again, unless you can prove there was a significant portion of women having children prior to marriage and that thus drove them to get married you are not showing a cause and effect relationship. Women got married and had kids (overwhelming planned) because that was their primary milestone back then. That is no longer the primary milestone, thus they don't tackle it as early as they once did.

Note that having kids earlier in the past was also a MALE milestone as well, the age of fatherhood has slipped back along with that of motherhood, and there is nothing to suggest this is driven entirely by the choices of women. For instance in my relationship I am the one that doesn't want kids right now, my significant other would have three of four rug rats right now if it were up to her.
 
Back
Top Bottom