Is Abortion Murder?

Is early abortion murder?


  • Total voters
    135
Narz said:
Abortion is murder (depriving another potential being of his/her life)

I'm sorry, but as Gothmog has already pointed out at least once, potentiality (and here, specifically potential people) as a basis for a moral system falls flat. Try Narveson's "Moral Matters" for a more in depth look. For one blatant absurdity you can look to Perfection's post. The simple fact that we generally aren't procreating like all get out deprives billions of potential beings of his/her life.
 
nonconformist said:
This is a completely non-seqitur argument, and I don't really get what you're hinting at.
Marijuana is a drug, that is primarily used recreationally.
People don't abort for recreation.
Uh, the number one reason for abortions is so sex can continue to be used recreationally, so you're either lying or completely ignorant of the facts.
 
punkbass2000 said:
I'm sorry, but as Gothmog has already pointed out at least once, potentiality (and here, specifically potential people) as a basis for a moral system falls flat. Try Narveson's "Moral Matters" for a more in depth look. For one blatant absurdity you can look to Perfection's post. The simple fact that we generally aren't procreating like all get out deprives billions of potential beings of his/her life.
I don't need to read a book on the matter or sample other people's opinions. The fact is, you're destroying potential life, life that in fact, has started growing and will continue to grow and fight for it's life unless it is killed. If you sprout a grass seed and then squash it when it's just started growing or you wait until it's seven inches high and pull it up at it's root, you've still killed it. Who gets to decide when a fetus is truly alive?
 
nonconformist said:
A tumour has the same DNA as a person.
No it doesn't. The DNA is similar, but generally either highly mutated or polyploid. Again you are either lying or ignorant of the facts.
 
Narz said:
The fact is, you're destroying potential life, life that in fact, has started growing and will continue to grow and fight for it's life unless it is killed.
I guess we should stop clearing the trees and using rats as test subjects.

Do you consider an egg a Chicken?
 
vbraun said:
I guess we should stop clearing the trees and using rats as test subjects.
:confused:

vbraun said:
Do you consider an egg a Chicken?
No, not before it is fertilized, but if a baby chicken is growing inside the egg and you take it and smash it (killing the chick inside) then it's murder. Anyone disagree?
 
Well, I do. You can't murder a chicken. You can kill it all day long, but no matter how dead it is after you get done, it's impossible to have murdered it.

Chickens aren't people.

All of this apples and oranges crap needs to stop.
 
punkbass2000 said:
The simple fact that we generally aren't procreating like all get out deprives billions of potential beings of his/her life.

There is a great difference between a potential being which is potential and in no way real, and a potential being which has already begun its formation, and has a physical aspect to it.
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
Well, I do. You can't murder a chicken. You can kill it all day long, but no matter how dead it is after you get done, it's impossible to have murdered it.

Chickens aren't people.

You're right, I did a dictionary.com search and murder does specificly means the killing of one human by another.

Man, am I the only non-Christian who believes abortion is murder?
 
Narz said:
Man, am I the only non-Christian who believes abortion is murder?

No, your not. I believe the killing of a sentient fetus is murder. However, before that, I'd call it just killing and think it should be legal, though discouraged.
 
cgannon64 said:
There is a great difference between a potential being which is potential and in no way real, and a potential being which has already begun its formation, and has a physical aspect to it.

What is that difference and why is it important?
 
Narz said:
Akka, are you really comparing a fetus to a severed limb?
Not exactly.
I'm aware of the fundamental differences between a limb and an embryo.
But my point is : neither of them is a PERSON.
Both are unthinking lump of cells.
As such there is no moral problem in their destruction (as long as the PERSON related to them agree, of course).
The difference is that the fetus is developing a brain and will eventually form into a full person who will likely live for 70 or 80 years. Sure, like a severed arm, he/she cannot think but that doesn't mean he/she is not alive. If someone falls into a coma should we consider them dead even if they have a chance, in time (say within 9 months ;)) to fully recover their mental capacities?
So what ?
Potentially is not actually. The person in coma already have her brain, and already has memories, opinions and the like. She's just unable to use them at the moment.
The embryo is not "unable to use his mind at the moment". The embryo DO NOT HAVE a mind.

I've already debunked several times the absurdity to make potentiality the same as actually, please see the obvious and don't ask me to do it YET AGAIN...
 
Akka said:
Proven in countless previous threads.
At least, no one has been able to prove otherwise, which for me means that it's true until such a thing happens.
Some people claim that the existence of God has been proven countless times too. At least no one has been able to prove otherwise:p.

As far as I can see you have no proof at all. That something seems obvious to you is not proof. What makes somebody a person appears to be an arbitrary definition that cannot be proved or disproved.

Akka said:
Destroying an embryo, as such, is killing a living thing, that is human, but NOT a person.
That is good enough to me. Killing a healthy living thing that is human is wrong in my opinion.

vbraun said:
The seals would do the same thing to us if they were in our position. And, why the hell are you talking about seals? The connection is not made on my end.
Maybe they would, but that is irrelevant. A grown up seal has probably a more complex mind than a newborn human, but still I would want the human baby to enjoy a far better protection than the seal. Minds don’t give creatures the right to protection against human aggression. Of course I could have used pigs instead of seals, but pigs are quite dumb. I am not sure if a grown up pig has a more complex mind than a newborn human.

Akka said:
Not exactly.
Both are unthinking lump of cells.
As such there is no moral problem in their destruction (as long as the PERSON related to them agree, of course).
I think there are moral problems in their destruction anyway. If you visit your doctor and demand that she cuts off one of your legs, I don’t think she would do it. Instead she would probably direct you to a psychiatrist and hopefully the psychiatrist would make you forget this stupid idea. I wouldn’t mind if a woman who wants to destroy a healthy foetus would get a similar treatment.
 
Pikachu said:
but pigs are quite dumb. I am not sure if a grown up pig has a more complex mind than a newborn human.
:confused:
I thought pigs are quite intelligent?

Right after humans, primates and dolphins and alike?
 
Preview-
It is my hope in writing this essay to help improve the understanding of the potentiality argument. I will not presume to claim that this essay is authoritative on the subject, or even that I am some authority to be regarded as infallible. I only wish to improve the usage of the argument for the benefit of both sides.

Background-
My education was begun in rural America, in a public school system, and the institutional portion of it ended at a two-year college without a degree. During and since that time, I have and continue to read voraciously, and also write, mostly on internet chat forums in debate topic threads. I think the writing style and content of this essay will adequately demonstrate that I am literate and at least adequately informed on the topic.
Philosophically, I am a deist, specifically a Christian theist. While I was raised by Witnesses, I consider myself a fundamentalist as I no longer attend any organized religious services. I remain largely in agreement with many of the Witnesses articles of faith, but am at variance with some things, and feel no need to reveal them here. It is not my place, nor my prerogative, to judge the faith of others.
My position on abortion is that it is a taking of life that falls short, however minutely, of murder. I feel that this position is well-supported in the Old Testament (OT hereafter). Pregnant women who lost children to injury were to be compensated by the injurer, but that one was not put to death, as was the case with those who killed the born. Abortions performed in the Talmud even had some rules set in place regarding what was and was not acceptable, and those limitations also support the OT and the idea that killing a fetus is a serious matter that is not quite murder.
Clearly, I support the potentiality argument as an attack on abortion-as-contraception, IE the killing of a fetus for reasons other than the health of the mother or for reasons of detected abnormalities of the fetus, a situation that could not exist in Biblical times.

Pro-
The potentiality argument has two strong points:
• Left to its own devices, a fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus (the unborn hereafter) will become a baby.
(50% of fertilized eggs and 10% of actual pregnancies result in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) however. The actual chance of a fertilized egg becoming a human if unmolested is 45%, and for an embryo onward is roughly 90%.
Source: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm)
• At all stages of development, the unborn have fully human DNA.

Certainly there is no question that a natural pregnancy can have but two end results: a human baby, or a miscarriage of some form. Therefore every pregnancy has the potential to result in a new human life. That potentiality is real cannot be seriously debated. Its significance is the only point of attack for those seeking to defeat potentiality. So is it significant?
Consider that almost no form of abortion is going to occur before the first mitosis, the point at which (see footnote 1) the odds of a successful pregnancy jump from a respectable 45% to an almost impregnable (forgive me) 90%. Now 45% potentiality is pretty strong, almost even odds. 90% odds you can get rich on in Vegas, by betting half your stake every time. Clearly this potentiality is by no means a weak and uncertain thing. Even the morning after pill (MAP hereafter) will be hard-pressed to face just a lone zygote, as first mitosis generally occurs within 30 hours (Source: http://cats.med.uvm.edu/cats_teachingmod/embryology/1_3/week_1/zygote_divide.html) and the MAP is effective (and prescribed) up to 120 hours after intercourse. Unless literally taken the morning after, the MAP is denying life to an embryo that had a 90% chance of being a human.
45% is near-even odds, and saying that 90% is not statistically significant is simply not a defensible position.

Con-
Potentiality has its weak points as well:
• By definition it is not actuality.
• 45%-90% is not a sure thing.

‘A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.’ This common wisdom eloquently states that that which is evident and real holds more intrinsic value than that which is hoped for or expected. That this weakens potentiality is undeniable, but it does not dismiss it entirely. It does make the unborn hold less intrinsic value than the born, but only by a small margin. That margin is sufficient to extend certain liberties and privileges to the mother, such as expressing a preference to her life over the unborn in the event of a medical emergency by aborting to preserve her life due to necessity, but it is not sufficient to evaporate all right to life of the unborn.
The weakness in potentiality means that even a late-term abortion of a healthy fetus by a healthy mother is not murder, but something just short of it.

Conclusion
What this means to the abortion debate is that the pro-life side cannot claim that abortion is murder, and cannot name those who procure or perform abortions as murderers. In situations where the mother is not threatened by the unborn, the choice to abort should be rightly held as abominable, but not as murder. Taking away the ‘m-word’ could have a very positive effect on the pro-life movement, as it would remove the sense of desperation felt by some unfortunates who feel compelled by their flawed understanding of the situation to take violent action to stem what they see as a form of genocide against the most helpless members of their society, while leaving behind a valid justification for regarding abortion-as-contraception as being morally repugnant.

On the pro-choice side, a willingness to listen to the pro-life side might be cultivated by not hearing the term ‘murderer’ bandied about as a descriptor of their actions. This could lead to a voluntary reduction in the use of abortion-as-contraception due to increasing acceptance of the fetus as something nearly human, instead of as a clinically distanced ‘clump of cells’. It seems this term was invented to defeat the flawed potentiality=reality argument, and in so doing, stripped all humanity from the unborn, tearing away any social stigmata attached to their unnecessary deaths.
Abortion-as-contraception could become extremely unpopular even to those who support the right to abortion for unfortunate necessities by restoring a measure of humanity to the unborn by eliminating the pro-choice side’s need to dehumanize them into ‘clumps of cells’ to defeat spurious murder allegations.

The pro-life side’s polarization of this issue with rigid insistence that abortion is murder is a self-defeating tactic. It is my hope that improving their understanding of potentiality will allow them to moderate their views in good conscience and remove the need for the pro-choice side to dehumanize the unborn. Dehumanization opens the door to atrocity, and the fate of millions has been atrocious indeed.

Abortion is not murder. It’s not a wonderful thing, or even a good thing, and I can’t imagine that anyone thinks it is more than a necessary evil. Abortion-as-contraception is about as close to murder as one can get morally speaking, and it should be socially abhorred. But calling it murder is counter-productive in the worst possible way, as the dehumanizing defense strips away any protective instinct society might otherwise retain.
 
Pikachu said:
Some people claim that the existence of God has been proven countless times too. At least no one has been able to prove otherwise:p.
The subtle difference is that we see and interact with persons all day long in our life, unlike gods.
As far as I can see you have no proof at all. That something seems obvious to you is not proof. What makes somebody a person appears to be an arbitrary definition that cannot be proved or disproved.
Sorry, but obviousness IS evidence.
If you see someone shooting on someone else with a loaded gun and emptieing it's gun on the body of the person, it's a proof there has been a murder.
Now, the person can say that there is no proof, and that he didn't thought that he would kill the person while doing it, but for anyone not being of bad faith, the obviousness of the case is proof enough.
That is good enough to me. Killing a healthy living thing that is human is wrong in my opinion.
Then charge me with murder when I willingly cut my finger. I'm actually killing plenty of cells that are human and healthy. I must be evil.
I think there are moral problems in their destruction anyway. If you visit your doctor and demand that she cuts off one of your legs, I don’t think she would do it. Instead she would probably direct you to a psychiatrist and hopefully the psychiatrist would make you forget this stupid idea. I wouldn’t mind if a woman who wants to destroy a healthy foetus would get a similar treatment.
Well, actually it's already what's done. Abortion is never treated as a light subject, and girls who want to have one have the support and advices of people of the medical staff.

But this point doesn't relate to the "evilness" of the act. It relates to the "seriousness". Cutting your leg is a serious thing. It's not a thing that is done just for fun, nor lightly. Same with abortion. That something is serious doesn't mean it's evil. Or else, quitting a job is evil :crazyeye:
 
Narz said:
Actually a fetus is very different from a chicken in that an egg has no life as it has not yet been fertilized.
You're quite correct, but I wouldn't cry for a fertilised egg thrown at me either
(Goodness knws how good I am at avoiding eggs nowadays :ack: )
 
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