Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[EnglishEdward]

..tariffs will hurt everybody....

Not so. There are benefits to tariffs.

They raise money for the government which has a deficit.

and financial institutions will flee like rats on a sinking ship

If financial institutions can set up companies in EU member states such as in the
Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Luxembourg to avoid tax and they do just like that,
then they can set up subsidiaries in EU member states to undertake business with the EU.

and freedom of movement, which anyone could be forgiven for thinking that the UK hates as vehemently if it were a thousand suns.

What the UK hates most is benefit shopping by migrants and UK companies
employing migrants via gangmasters etc and spurious self employment at less
pay to undercut UK nationals and adopting employ immigrants only policies.

 

[Akka]

There is always some untidy detail.

This did not stop, or even really delay, Indian Independence.

Are you seriously comparing this situation to a full country on the other side of the world regaining its independance after colonization ?

 

[EnglishEdward]

I still believe Article 50 will be triggered, but it just appears to me that Brexit was more of a certainty the day after referendum than it is now.

What has surprised me is that the EU have not adopted the line they did with
Eire, France or Netherlands of ignoring the result and asking the UK to think again.

I suspect that this is because they have always known that the UK public has
never bought into this ever closer union dream, a dream which arose from the
defeat, devastation, occupation and humiliation of all six of the founder members,
Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and Netherlands during WW2.

The UK (excepting the Channel Islands) was never occupied (except by Yanks)
and so saw no reason to simply sacrifice significant self determination for security.
Where we did compromise it was with the USA to counter Soviet nuclear threats.

I understand that the EU Commission has privately polled people for their views
over the years and concluded that the UK population had limited interest in the EU.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Are you seriously comparing this situation to a full country on the other side of the world regaining its independance after colonization ?

Only in so much as it is far far simpler for the UK to Leave the EU, than for the
Indians and Pakistanis to form their own countries independent of the UK.

 

[Old Hippy]

Only in so much as it is far far simpler for the UK to Leave the EU, than for the
Indians and Pakistanis to form their own countries independent of the UK.

you would notice that they both ended up with UK style governments and laws after gaining Independence from the UK

are you suggesting the UK gains its independence from the EU by adopting EU styles of government and laws

 

[EnglishEdward]

you would notice that they both ended up with UK style governments and laws after gaining Independence from the UK

Not quite. India is a federal state with Indian Law and State Law. In that respect
it reflects the USA more than the UK as it was in 1945; and Pakistani split up into
Pakistan and Bangladesh where alas the law of the dictator applied for some time.

are you suggesting the UK gains its independence from the EU by adopting EU styles of government and laws

No, but I am not averse to considering what works well elsewhere on a case by case
basis. If the EU has a sensible regulation (e.g. perhaps on not polluting the North Sea
with untreated sewage) that we'd like to keep, then find soft copy, save, copy, paste
and suitably edit out reference to EU bodies, and make it part of a UK regulation.

Indeed if the EU negotiating team has any sense, it might suggest creating such an
ongoing obligation as part of the Exit agreement.

 

[Akka]

Indeed if the EU negotiating team has any sense, it might suggest creating such an
ongoing obligation as part of the Exit agreement.

There is no need to discuss it, if the UK wants to access to the common EU market it will need to do exactly that anyway...

 

[FriendlyFire]

There is always some untidy detail.
This did not stop, or even really delay, Indian Independence.

Yes there was NO delays, and Indian independence happened with great swiftness, No stalling by the British. Even if you consider the "Indian problem" it took 2 years minimum though it looks more like 18 years as the British stalled India self rule. Not like the Indian Problem was about to explode into the British face if the British decided to stall any more

Maybe activate article 50 once Brexiters come up with a plan and a study of what UK could face outside the EU ?
Hopefully the EU also could take the time to carry out some reforms during that period ?

A commission would be held in 1929, to see if India was ready for more concessions/reforms.

However, the British controlled all central government and within the provincial governments, the British kept control of the key posts of tax and law and order.

Many Tory MP’s in Britain were against the whole idea of giving anything whatsoever to India in terms of self-government. They had two complaints about the whole idea:

1. If you gave India some form of self-rule, where would it end?
2. Would it start the process that would lead to the break-up of the British Empire?

The reforms were introduced very slowly and their spread throughout such a large country was equally as slow. This angered many as there was a general belief that the British were deliberately stalling on introducing these reforms to ensure their continued supremacy in India.

In 1945, the newly elected Labour government headed by Clement Attlee wanted to push ahead with solving what was seen as the “Indian Problem”. However, the religious rivalry in India was coming to a head and made any potential solution very complex. Attempts to draw up a compromise constitution that was acceptable to both Muslims and Hindus failed. The British plan was to allow the provincial governments extensive powers whilst central government would only have limited powers.

Early in 1947, Atlee announced that Britain would leave India no later than June 1948

he concluded that peace could only be achieved if partition was introduced. The Hindu Congress agreed with him. Mountbatten became convinced that any delay would increase violence and he pushed forward the date for Britain leaving India

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/india-1900-to-1947/

 

[Arakhor]

If financial institutions can set up companies in EU member states such as in the Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Luxembourg to avoid tax and they do just like that, then they can set up subsidiaries in EU member states to undertake business with the EU.

As opposed to simply relocating to Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris, as already been mentioned in the news?

What the UK hates most is benefit shopping by migrants and UK companies employing migrants via gangmasters etc and spurious self employment at less pay to undercut UK nationals and adopting employ immigrants only policies.

Such policies are already illegal, so pulling out of Europe won't change anything at all on that front.

No, but I am not averse to considering what works well elsewhere on a case by case basis. If the EU has a sensible regulation (e.g. perhaps on not polluting the North Sea with untreated sewage) that we'd like to keep, then find soft copy, save, copy, paste and suitably edit out reference to EU bodies, and make it part of a UK regulation.

Other than the fact that such will take a hell of a long time, such rules are already part of UK regulations. What's more, you'll need Acts of Parliament to repeal any legislation we don't want any more (and those have their own problems right about now).

 

[uppi]

Like what is there to negotiate on?

If you think about it for more than 5 seconds: A huge amount of existing contracts.

Territorial Boundaries

The UK borders are known and generally not disputed.
NI/Eire border stays same unless voters in NI opt for unification.

Spain might take an issue with "not disputed".

If Northern Ireland stays in the UK, then the question arises: What exactly happens at that border? Are border controls going to be reestablished? What happens if Ireland joins the Schengen area, would you allow people from all over Europe to enter the UK without any passport controls whatsoever?

Pension Rights

Unless people have worked for foreign governments or companies
UK pays its nationals, EU or EU Member states pay their own nationals.

The bolded is the hard part: What happens to UK citizens who have worked in the EU their whole life, or the other way around, who pays their pensions? And what about UK citizens who have enjoyed their retirement somewhere in the EU? Would an EU member be allowed to tax their pensions?

Money in Bank

IIRC There is not any to be apportioned.


Debt

IIRC EU Commission has no debt to be apportioned.

Of course there is: There will be outstanding payments from the UK to the EU, but also the other way around: grants, structural aid, subventions, and other things. These might have been awarded with a long duration. What happens to all these? Will the scientists paid by EU grants be out of a job, when the UK leaves, will organizations that rely on EU funds suddenly be insolvent, will infrastructure projects that are half-built have to be abandoned? What about UK nationals in the EU that rely on EU funds they would not be eligible any more? How many lives to you want to disrupt? It might well take 10 years and maybe even much longer until all the current projects the UK is involved in have finished.

Tariffs

If EU imposes tariffs, let them; UK merely corresponds; no need for treaty.

So what happens to companies that have a trade deal negotiated under the assumptions of no tariff? Who is going to pay that tariff and are they even able to pay it? But tariffs are only a minor concerns, the pressing issue are regulations, what is allowed to be sold by whom. Without any traty, existing business deals might become plain illegal: What happens to those? Without a treaty, EU companies would not be allowed to store any EU customer data in the UK, so they would have to terminate their deals with UK data centers immediately.

Free Movement of People

UK continues to admit all from EU on production of valid passport (unless previously
deported or UK suspects they are criminals or terrorists), but there is no automatic
right to employment or benefits (other than emergency use of NHS), own second homes.

And what happens to people who already have a job, are awarded benefits, or own homes? Are you going to throw them out (and would likely have to deal with refugees with UK citizenship in return)? I doubt that the UK government would be able to handle millions of applications for work permits of EU citizens within a short period. And even if there is a longer transition period (requiring a treaty!), whatever UK office is handling that will get to nothing else for quite a while.

You have not even touched the issue of EU institutions on UK soil. What happens to those?

An exit as you propose without any negotiations, would be a huge disaster and would tie down the courts for 20 years.

 

[daft]

Not so. There are benefits to tariffs.

They raise money for the government which has a deficit.




If financial institutions can set up companies in EU member states such as in the
Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Luxembourg to avoid tax and they do just like that,
then they can set up subsidiaries in EU member states to undertake business with the EU.




What the UK hates most is benefit shopping by migrants and UK companies
employing migrants via gangmasters etc and spurious self employment at less
pay to undercut UK nationals and adopting employ immigrants only policies.

Why are the English so anti-Polish?

They blame Polish nationals for the jobs they "take away from UK citizens"?
And you know why UK companies would rather hire Polish workers than typical lazy and Englishman with high pay demands?
Because Polish work hard, are often better trained in their trade than their English counterparts, be it nurse or millwright, Polish workers will work for much less, do their jobs very well and not complain.
That's why these Agencies would rather hire economic migrants from Poland and other, former Communist block-now in EU countries, they work for less than the lazy, less educated/trained and with high wage demand Britons.

Some of the migrants may speak little English, some might be alcoholics-Slavs tend to drink a lot, but hey, how much beer and booze do the English consume each night in their Pubs?

Overall though, they work for much less, and work hard, because for them the pay they earn is much greater than what they'd have made in same amount of time in their own country (working in their trade)

British (English mostly) hatred towards the Polish people astounds me, and reminds me how Nazi Germany started! Nazis blamed the Jewish for anything and pretty much everything, and the populace followed them, seems like the English are walking down a similiar path, just having switched from Jews to Poles.

Polish have every right to work in England as EU citizens and the open hate of Polish and other Eastern Europeans in England should stop right away, otherwise you people will turn into Nazis, sooner or later.

English should worry more about the large contingent of Muslims in their country turning to terrorism, incited by ISIS, or even ISIS terrorists arriving in their country, killing British civilians in their own country, perhaps even blowing up landmarks, like the Big Ben.
What about the Pakistani gangs raping English teenage girls and turning them into prostitutes? Never heard of that case?
But that's different, got to let them do it on the low, otherwise it'd be Racism, but hey! lets kick out the Polish instead! Yay! They're white, and not Jewish, we can say and do what we want to/with those people!

In my last visit to Poland I've heard about the superior culture of the British visitors there. Groups of young Englishmen, going on escapades to Poland, for their beautiful and not at all expensive women, for the beer(alcohol), costing much less than in England, drinking it in huge amounts, then leaving their hotel rooms thrashed.

That's all I got on this topic, read it and weep, truth hurts.

 

[Verbose]

What has surprised me is that the EU have not adopted the line they did with
Eire, France or Netherlands of ignoring the result and asking the UK to think again.

That's because the Brexit referendum had nothing to do with the EU. And it won't, unless the UK government involves it.

 

[Traitorfish]

*snip*

I don't think there's actually a lot of specifically anti-Polish sentiment in the UK, more a generalised xenophobia that tends to land on Poles because they're the last and most recognisable sub-set of EU migrants. Even recently, most xenophobic rhetoric has shifted towards Romanians and Bulgarians, and again without much of it being specifically anti-Romanian or anti-Bulgarian, because most British people couldn't tell you a thing about Romania or Bulgaria.

Also, your comments on British Muslims and on the Rotherham rape scandal specifically are... Pretty grotesque, in the first place, but also a bit pointless, because you'll find that there's a very strong overlap between the people most viciously espousing anti-Polish sentiment and the people most viciously espousing anti-Muslim and anti-Asian sentiment, so you're preaching to the white-robed choir on that one. I'd advise that you do a little more research on the issue before mouthing off about it.

 

[classical_hero]

I love the hysteria of the remain supporters.

 

[Traitorfish]

I love the hysteria of the remain supporters.

Are you referring to something in particular, or just general commentary?

 

[Mouthwash]

Are you referring to something in particular, or just general commentary?

I don't think there's a whole lot of difference in this case.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, I mean, is there some particular behaviour that Classical Hero is describing as indicating hysteria, or does he just see the general tone of Remain supporters as being hysterical?

 

[Mouthwash]

Well, I mean, is there some particular behaviour that Classical Hero is describing as indicating hysteria, or does he just see the general tone of Remain supporters as being hysterical?

Like I said, not much difference. I've yet to encounter reasoned and sober criticism of Brexit online. This may have been possible a year ago, but the globalist camp has been driven into a frenzy because their narrative is collapsing around them.

 

[Ajidica]

Like I said, not much difference. I've yet to encounter reasoned and sober criticism of Brexit online. This may have been possible a year ago, but the globalist camp has been driven into a frenzy because their narrative is collapsing around them.

Pointing out that the UK's attempt to extract itself from 40 years of economic interdependence on the Common Market will lead to substantial economic and political disruptions is hysteria?
I mean, both the Tories and Labour managed to more-or-less lose their leadership in a week.

 

[Mouthwash]

Pointing out that the UK's attempt to extract itself from 40 years of economic interdependence on the Common Market will lead to substantial economic and political disruptions is hysteria?
I mean, both the Tories and Labour managed to more-or-less lose their leadership in a week.

I hear argument from the Leave camp, mockery and indignation from the Remain camp. Exceptions are possible in the former case, but I haven't seen any in the latter (I mean reasoned argument that isn't full of obvious fallacies making it practically a circle-jerk).