Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Old Hippy]

Extradition has traditionally been about returning fugitives
to the country where they committed the crime.

No, what I want is the right of the UK to make its own laws and us to live under them.

that raises the question of precisely where the crime was committed, if you hack a US data base of the missile systems is not the crime committed in the US while the culprit might be in the UK. we have already prosecuted a right wing nut job for violating controversial Australian hate speech laws in Australia even though he committed them while overseas in the US where it was not illegal.

either way it is still ones own national government that sets the terms for which treaties it signs. saying one wants their own government to decide their own laws actually means one's government gets to decide their own laws and treaties

 

[Gigaz]

There is actually a reasonable economic case for the Dexit... If Germany left the Euro, the new Mark would rise dramatically in value, making imports or holidays very cheap. But there is no significant discussion about that in Germany.

 

[EnglishEdward]

that raises the question of precisely where the crime was committed, if you hack a US data base of the missile systems is not the crime committed in the US while the culprit might be in the UK.

Well I dare say that if someone fires a nuke into Las Vegas one can maintain
that they knew what their target was and so Nevada law should apply and because
that is where the victims are, irrespective of jurisdiction of the launch point.

The databases may be anywhere in Cyberspace and we/he can not know in advance
which US states may claim jurisdiction of them and what the applicable laws are.

Wherefore if the culprit is in the UK, he may be inputted to know the legality under
UK law and his intent is formed in the UK and exercised in the UK, so UK law applies.

we have already prosecuted a right wing nut job for violating controversial Australian hate speech laws in Australia even though he committed them while overseas in the US where it was not illegal.

Why? Was he an Australian? Did he incite the murder of someone in Australia?
If not, why is Australia interfering in US constitutional rights?

either way it is still ones own national government that sets the terms for which treaties it signs. saying one wants their own government to decide their own laws actually means one's government gets to decide their own laws and treaties

There is a contradiction in here.

The UK government is not setting its own laws if it signs treaties such that its
own laws are to be put aside in favour of foreign laws. By the way one should not
regard the treaty as a contract between governments because there is nothing in
it for the UK, and UK contracts require consideration unless Scots Law is specified.


The fact is extra territorial law should only be applicable when agreed as governing
law specified in a contract, OR it is simply not possible to apply the local laws.

The concept that prosecutor or litigant can choose the jurisdiction so as to thereby
select the most favourable laws, judges and juries and dire punishments or heavy
damages is odious and incompatible with natural justice.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

The EU is the destination of the 50% of Germany total exports while UK represents only the 7%. UK is not even the first client for german exports inside EU, it is France with the 8,5%. So it is really easy to see where German interest is and which market will they protect first and above all. Looking at it from whatever angle, the UK is not in position to negotiate with the EU on the same level, nor to pressure it in any relevant way. It is a matter of size. That was the reason because it joined the EU to begin with.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Dexit.

No, seriously, Germany in general and Mrs Merkel in particular seem to get their way a lot. I am talking about gentle persuasion here, not the jack boot type.

But it is not just Germany that will have to think about their electorate. There are several other countries that might not need too much persuasion to find a deal and make the V4 accept a compromise:

Thank you for the graph.

It appears that the only country the UK 'really' needs to bother with is Ireland.

 

[Lillefix]

Thank you for the graph.

It appears that the only country the UK 'really' needs to bother with is Ireland.

You don't need cars in England?

 

[EnglishEdward]

You don't need cars in England?

We have plenty of car factories in the UK that could increase production, and
there is a large stock already on the roads so there is no need to import them.

However there is some dependence on importing buses and lorries,
but the continental European Union is not the only place that makes them.

 

[uppi]

There is actually a reasonable economic case for the Dexit... If Germany left the Euro, the new Mark would rise dramatically in value, making imports or holidays very cheap. But there is no significant discussion about that in Germany.

That was the initial program of the AfD (before it got taken over by the xenophobes).

 

[really]

Thank you for the graph.

It appears that the only country the UK 'really' needs to bother with is Ireland.

You will have to negotiate with the EU so - Other parts of the EU are our biggest export market, followed by the US with the UK in third.

 

[bathsheba666]

We have plenty of car factories in the UK that could increase production, and
there is a large stock already on the roads so there is no need to import them.

However there is some dependence on importing buses and lorries,
but the continental European Union is not the only place that makes them.

We have plenty of car factories inside the UK, and investment is maintained as we are part of the EU. It will be interesting - in the sense of sad - to see how many new models these factories will get to build over the coming years.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Thank you for the graph.

It appears that the only country the UK 'really' needs to bother with is Ireland.

It appears Leavers pushing for no EU trade agreement have planned for this. By opening up the UK to the world plan, this plan as pointed out is fantasy and will result in the destruction of manufactoring, doubling of UK deficets.

It would be interesting experiment actually to see if the UK did try this.

The latest trade figures published this morning emphasise the UK’s reliance on the European Union as a destination for our goods exports – underlining the pressure on the Government to secure a favourable post-Brexit trade arrangement with the rest of the EU.

some pro-Brexit economists argue the UK should not bother with a trade deal to lift EU tariffs for the UK and simply, unilaterally, abolish all the tariffs on UK imports from anywhere in the world, something that would push down the prices of UK imports but would likely have a devastating impact on many of our manufacturing exporters.

Without the UK's roughly £90bn annual services trade surplus for 2015 as a whole the UK's record current account deficit (the difference between everything the country as a whole earns and what it consumes and invests) would have been almost twice as large.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...britain-s-economy-in-two-charts-a7126676.html

 

[innonimatu]

There is actually a reasonable economic case for the Dexit... If Germany left the Euro, the new Mark would rise dramatically in value, making imports or holidays very cheap. But there is no significant discussion about that in Germany.

Unemployment is a big political problem. One that Germany has found a way to export in this currency union. A strong DM would bring new headaches to german politicians. They made a choice to deal with political instability elsewhere in the EU rather than dealing with it at home.

You don't need cars in England?

What, do you think the absence of preferential trade agreements means a Continental System against the UK, or what? If the UK buys cars from anywhere in Europe, they'll still be sold after the brexit.

BTW, the idea of an embargo against the UK went really well for the french idiot who came up with the idea, didn't it? And the german idiot more recently. I do hope people have learned something from history by now.

 

[Gigaz]

Unemployment is a big political problem. One that Germany has found a way to export in this currency union. A strong DM would bring new headaches to german politicians. They made a choice to deal with political instability elsewhere in the EU rather than dealing with it at home.

I'm not proposing a Dexit. My only point it that the Germans don't want to leave the Euro or the EU even though they, unlike the Brits, would actually have some predictable advantages from doing so.

 

[Old Hippy]

Well I dare say that if someone fires a nuke into Las Vegas one can maintain
that they knew what their target was and so Nevada law should apply and because
that is where the victims are, irrespective of jurisdiction of the launch point

knowing where the target is, is not the crime

The databases may be anywhere in Cyberspace and we/he can not know in advance
which US states may claim jurisdiction of them and what the applicable laws are.

seriously? US missile data is in the 'cloud'

Why? Was he an Australian? Did he incite the murder of someone in Australia?
If not, why is Australia interfering in US constitutional rights?

yes he was and broke Australian laws on hate speech by publishing them on the web from the US to Australia

There is a contradiction in here.

The UK government is not setting its own laws if it signs treaties such that its
own laws are to be put aside in favour of foreign laws. By the way one should not
regard the treaty as a contract between governments because there is nothing in
it for the UK, and UK contracts require consideration unless Scots Law is specified.


The fact is extra territorial law should only be applicable when agreed as governing
law specified in a contract, OR it is simply not possible to apply the local laws.

there is no contradiction don't sign treaties you don't like, don't let your government do things that change your laws.
Our PM is in the states arguing for a trade deal, I'm listening to a greens senator talk live on TV as I write this about how it would give foreing tobacco and drug companies the right to to sue the Australian government if future laws change the conditions they operate under. and that it would raise the cost of cancer drugs due to American laws on government purchase of things we already have to comply with American self regulation standards in meat processing due to previous deals

obviously she is saying this is a bad deal, change it, we don't agree with it and will not support the passing of it in the senate.
because this could affect our right to change tax rates .

The concept that prosecutor or litigant can choose the jurisdiction so as to thereby
select the most favourable laws, judges and juries and dire punishments or heavy
damages is odious and incompatible with natural justice.

yes totally agree which is why one should keep a careful eye on ones government. That they don't sign you up to dodgy treaties

.

 

[EnglishEdward]

You will have to negotiate with the EU so - Other parts of the EU are our biggest export market, followed by the US with the UK in third.

I am not proposing to meddle with Ireland's trade with the rest of the EU or the USA.

Apart from the Republic of Ireland with which the UK shares a common border;
the only other part of the EU; the UK really needs to negotiate with is France,
because the channel tunnel 's continental entrance and exit is in France.

That is not to say the UK should refuse discussions. However neither the UK nor the
rest of the EU has the other in a headlock and is obliged to concede in negotiations.

 

[Yeekim]

I am not proposing to meddle with Ireland's trade with the rest of the EU or the USA.

Apart from the Republic of Ireland with which the UK shares a common border;
the only other part of the EU; the UK really needs to negotiate with is France,
because the channel tunnel 's continental entrance and exit is in France.

That is not to say the UK should refuse discussions. However neither the UK nor the
rest of the EU has the other in a headlock and is obliged to concede in negotiations.

I don´t think any single EU country can sign a bilateral trade deal with UK. They are part of a single market, you know.

 

[Cheetah]

There's currently no negotiations taking place, and even what the UK wants hasn't been decided yet! Any talk of specific concessions are premature, as such.

However, all negotiations require both sides to concede on some points, so yes, there will be concessions, by necessity.

But from what I gather from Brexiters in this thread, it seems you all demand the EU concedes to no freedom of movement, yet to keep all the other freedoms. I can't imagine that the EU would accept such a deal, but you obviously seem to do, so I have a question: What do you think the UK can offer in return for such a concession by the EU?

 

[AdrienIer]

What do you think the UK can offer in return for such a concession by the EU?

Obviously the immense privilege of trading with the venerable and powerful United Kingdom. For this honor alone the EU should pay 10 trillion pounds a year to the UK, but the UK is magnanimous and will not ask for this sum.

 

[really]

I am not proposing to meddle with Ireland's trade with the rest of the EU or the USA.

Apart from the Republic of Ireland with which the UK shares a common border;
the only other part of the EU; the UK really needs to negotiate with is France,
because the channel tunnel 's continental entrance and exit is in France.

That is not to say the UK should refuse discussions. However neither the UK nor the
rest of the EU has the other in a headlock and is obliged to concede in negotiations.

There will be plenty of things to discuss between the two countries but as had been said above we cannot negotiate trade on our own behalf, the UK will have to negotiate with the EU, where we will have a veto I think.

When we did negotiate on our own we were supplicants.
We wouldn't have much to gain by going back to that situation. Some areas will be worse off unfortunately.

 

[Lohrenswald]

But from what I gather from Brexiters in this thread, it seems you all demand the EU concedes to no freedom of movement, yet to keep all the other freedoms.

Nah-uh, not me