Is Britain about to leave the EU?

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are their any views on existing subsidies to agriculture on the Brexit

would conservative policies allow subsidies to be paid, they should be opposed to them, would they get new subsidies through the UK parliament , would people accept welfare payments to country squires out of their tax payments? would better uses be found for it?

an interested English expat


Prior to our journey into EEC logic space at the end of 1973, there was an
extensive system of financial support for the UK farming industry.


Now there is a division within the Leave advocates; a minority (the survivors of
the "UK is the world's Head Office" believers cult) seem to think that the UK can run
food without any protection at all, and simply buy at cheapest world market price.

Rather silly idea in my opinion, farms would become Donald Trump golf courses.


The majority would probably support introducing some support system although
it might be tied in to subsidising a UK agricultural labour force in some way or the other.


Thing is people have not known, or have aged and forgotten what the old system
was, and the UK civil service has lost the ability to manage without computers.
Now the EU subsidy system is currently implemented by the UK using a rather
unsatisfactorily (entirely UK, not EU, cockup) outsourced single payment system.

So I rather suspect that it would be, for a few years, a case of. If you Johnny Farmer
can confirm in writing that you are growing or raising the same stuff as last year,
we will pay you the same incorrect amount as we previously incorrectly paid you.

In other words not a lot at all would change quickly.
 
Libyans start an uprising against a dictator?
"EU lights North Africa on fire"!

Said uprising quickly became an armed uprising backed by local power brokers who were promised recognition as a new government if they succeeded in toppling the current one. When they failed several EU countries, notably France, directly intervened to topple the libyan government and create the current anarchy. Without french intervention Libya would be back as it was. Now it has i nstead been in civil war for years. They must really be enjoying their "freedom".

Russian tanks roll into Ukraine?
"EU got a war going in Eastern Europe!"

Let us not forget that the EU escalated tension within Ukraine past breaking point by pushing its trade deal, knowing it would be divisive, and finally backed a coup. All of this before any tanks started rolling. That the stakes were high and it would lead to war was predictable.

Turkey having an autocratic streak?
"Gotta blame the EU again, somehow..."

Turkey has an autocratic president working to become dictator because for over a decade he has delivered economic growth to his constituency, thanks to favorable trade deals offered by the EU, allowing for a growth in exports and employment under his government.

I remember a time when your criticism against EU was grounded on reality.
Did it prove too constraining?

"If you remove anything that was bad about Hitler, he looks frighteningly similar to Juncker. They are both carbon-based life forms, for example!"

I try to point out the likely (not just possible, almost everything is conceivable in the long term, but what I judge likely) long-term effects of present policies. And, you know, I have been vindicated by later events in those worries.

Ok', let's make some historical parallels then. Juncker is not an Hitler. But he may be an EU Stresemann. The Hitlers of the future now have 1-2% at elections - as Hitler did when Stresemann fumbling his way through politics in 1920s Germany. And in some EU countries we've moved past Stresemann to Bruening.

The deflationary fetishists who rule over "the eurozone" and taking their entire economic policy out of Weimar Germany playbook - not surprising, they're the heirs of the german ordoliberals. So far they're pushed other countries within the EU, not germany, to the untenable position of paying debts and interests while being structurally unable to gain a trade surplus large enough to do so. But the logic they use to justify the prescription of "internal devaluations" in an international scenario where everyone wants to export its way out of a global crisis is the exact same that caused the collapse of the liberal parties in the Weimar Republic. And what do we see across several european countries: the collapse of liberal parties in national politics. It has not reached Germany - yet. It will. The EU economic policy is turning is being conducted down a similar path as Japan's was - and they're 30 years into a crisis and going.

The political scenario is different in Europe, of course, and I really don't think it likely that the EU can survive as a political construct much longer. But the stage is set that, in the unlikely possibility the EU achieves an escape forwards by becoming "politically unified", there will be a huge constituency among its 400 million voters willing to support a future European dictator who comes up with an "european nationalism" and proposes some (any...) radical change to economic policy. That is the sole programme I can see having any change of "uniting" voters from many countries: an EU rabid nationalism against external enemies, made possible by decades of frustration with economic problems and high unemployment.
This kind of political programme wouldn't gain much tract with germany's voters, because Germany has not been much harmed by the suicidal economic policies it has been imposed on the EU, the harm is falling primarily on others. But in some kind of "USE" the german population will be a minority voting block. A majority of voters will be from nations that have long been withering under the existing EU arrangements. Kind of like the rural vote in Weimar Germany supported the right-wing nationalists against the more liberal urban voters, while the urban pool dropped off from the contest.
A divided and discredited european "liberal" field made up of national parties that cannot be seen to cooperate too much (lest they be branded traitors by their own national-based electorates) will not be able to oppose a radical pan-european nationalism that can achieve unity across the EU by opening a fight against "external enemies". Be them the chinese, the russians, or even the americans. Reasons will be found. The liberals will instead cooperate with the new EU-nationalist forces, thinking them even useful to forge the new super-state they wanted, believing that they be directed and contained... So yes, there is a possibility for the EU to become a farce repeating 1933 in Germany. A slim possibility, but only because the possibility of the EU forging its "United States of Europe" instead of disbanding is slim.

The best possible outcome of the UK's EU referendum is a breakup of the EU, restoring freedom of action and meaningful democracy to national politics across Europe, and the reinstatement of the separate agreements in the areas of trade, justice, foreign relations, etc, that served Europe well before the EU swallowed them all anc created the one-size-must-fit all monster it is today on a misguided, tremendously dangerous path to creating some kind of european supser-state.
 
I think it's high time to repost this :
If anything, this thread should be a sterling example that if most of the rabid anti-EU posters here have one thing they don't fear and are able to embrace with gusto, it's ridicule.
 
^Could also be said about the baltic microstates peoples -which includes Finland-, amirite :mischief:

Remember that the South's problem with the EU is that it ruined us with austerity. Your own countries' problems with the EU is that it did not utterly allow you to be as zenophobic and/or racist as you feel like being. Compare the two.
 
I think it's high time to repost this :

Originally Posted by Akka
If anything, this thread should be a sterling example that if most of the rabid anti-EU posters here have one thing they don't fear and are able to embrace with gusto, it's ridicule.

Says the warmonger who cheered the destruction of Libya and called it a "liberation" and a duty. How has it turned out, Akka? How did your predictions and claims turn out?

You are exactly the kind of "good EU citizen" who scares the hell out of me.
 
When they failed several EU countries, notably France, directly intervened to topple the libyan government and create the current anarchy.
So was it "EU" or "France"?
Without french intervention Libya would be back as it was. Now it has i nstead been in civil war for years. They must really be enjoying their "freedom".
There is no way of saying where Libya would be without French intervention, but "back as it was" is hardly realistic option.
Let us not forget that the EU escalated tension within Ukraine past breaking point by pushing its trade deal, knowing it would be divisive, and finally backed a coup. All of this before any tanks started rolling. That the stakes were high and it would lead to war was predictable.
So, EU pushed a trade deal, whereas Russia attacked a country that had previously given up their nukes and strategic bomber fleet to them, in return for a promise to respect their sovereignty & territorial integrity. And you focus on blaming EU?
Turkey has an autocratic president working to become dictator because for over a decade he has delivered economic growth to his constituency, thanks to favorable trade deals offered by the EU, allowing for a growth in exports and employment under his government.
If EU stops trade with autocrats (Putin) it is bad. If it trades with them (Erdogan), it is also bad. I hope you see your own bias here.

I try to point out the likely (not just possible, almost everything is conceivable in the long term, but what I judge likely) long-term effects of present policies. And, you know, I have been vindicated by later events in those worries.

Ok', let's make some historical parallels then. Juncker is not an Hitler. But he may be an EU Stresemann. The Hitlers of the future now have 1-2% at elections - as Hitler did when Stresemann fumbling his way through politics in 1920s Germany. And in some EU countries we've moved past Stresemann to Bruening.

The deflationary fetishists who rule over "the eurozone" and taking their entire economic policy out of Weimar Germany playbook - not surprising, they're the heirs of the german ordoliberals. So far they're pushed other countries within the EU, not germany, to the untenable position of paying debts and interests while being structurally unable to gain a trade surplus large enough to do so. But the logic they use to justify the prescription of "internal devaluations" in an international scenario where everyone wants to export its way out of a global crisis is the exact same that caused the collapse of the liberal parties in the Weimar Republic. And what do we see across several european countries: the collapse of liberal parties in national politics. It has not reached Germany - yet. It will. The EU economic policy is turning is being conducted down a similar path as Japan's was - and they're 30 years into a crisis and going.

The political scenario is different in Europe, of course, and I really don't think it likely that the EU can survive as a political construct much longer. But the stage is set that, in the unlikely possibility the EU achieves an escape forwards by becoming "politically unified", there will be a huge constituency among its 400 million voters willing to support a future European dictator who comes up with an "european nationalism" and proposes some (any...) radical change to economic policy. That is the sole programme I can see having any change of "uniting" voters from many countries: an EU rabid nationalism against external enemies, made possible by decades of frustration with economic problems and high unemployment.
This kind of political programme wouldn't gain much tract with germany's voters, because Germany has not been much harmed by the suicidal economic policies it has been imposed on the EU, the harm is falling primarily on others. But in some kind of "USE" the german population will be a minority voting block. A majority of voters will be from nations that have long been withering under the existing EU arrangements. Kind of like the rural vote in Weimar Germany supported the right-wing nationalists against the more liberal urban voters, while the urban pool dropped off from the contest.
A divided and discredited european "liberal" field made up of national parties that cannot be seen to cooperate too much (lest they be branded traitors by their own national-based electorates) will not be able to oppose a radical pan-european nationalism that can achieve unity across the EU by opening a fight against "external enemies". Be them the chinese, the russians, or even the americans. Reasons will be found. The liberals will instead cooperate with the new EU-nationalist forces, thinking them even useful to forge the new super-state they wanted, believing that they be directed and contained... So yes, there is a possibility for the EU to become a farce repeating 1933 in Germany. A slim possibility, but only because the possibility of the EU forging its "United States of Europe" instead of disbanding is slim.

The best possible outcome of the UK's EU referendum is a breakup of the EU, restoring freedom of action and meaningful democracy to national politics across Europe, and the reinstatement of the separate agreements in the areas of trade, justice, foreign relations, etc, that served Europe well before the EU swallowed them all anc created the one-size-must-fit all monster it is today on a misguided, tremendously dangerous path to creating some kind of european super-state.
So you are saying we need to disband EU to stop rabid Greeks and Italians from staging a bloody Roman/Byzantine renaissance in Middle East?
This may be the best reason you've brought to table so far :lol:...
Remember that the South's problem with the EU is that it ruined us with austerity.
Sorry, but what is your alternative? Eternal wild deficit spending paid by "loans" never to be repaid?
 
^Letting the euro have +1 inflation back when all this charade started in 2009. Do you think it would be worse than how things are now?

Not that it matters anymore, harm is already done both to the EU as a whole, and the South. Only in the South it cost also lives ruined, suicides and overall misery. In the north it just caused you to vote in more fascists to help keep the black peoples out.
 
Says the warmonger who cheered the destruction of Libya and called it a "liberation" and a duty.
Well, I understand you'd have preferred to have Ghaddafi "drowning the country in blood" (his own words). That's such a much more humane and peaceful option :lol:

As Yeekim pointed, you'll just find a way to blame the EU anyway : intervention ? It causes chaos ! No intervention ? EU is complicit of bloody tyrants !
Anything to justify your delirium, like all good fanatics do.
You are exactly the kind of "good EU citizen" who scares the hell out of me.
You'd be the kind of person who'd scare me, but hopefully you have such a tenous grasp on reality clouded by your anti-EU delirium that you can just be left aside the road clownishly droning on.
I guess sometimes you'll accidentally fall on something which ends up true (after all, a broken clock is right twice a day) and seize it with frenzy so you can consider it's a proof you're right, even if it happens for all the wrong reasons. Gotta grasp at straws when reality isn't nice enough to agree with your insanity.
 
Prior to our journey into EEC logic space at the end of 1973, there was an
extensive system of financial support for the UK farming industry.


Now there is a division within the Leave advocates; a minority (the survivors of
the "UK is the world's Head Office" believers cult) seem to think that the UK can run
food without any protection at all, and simply buy at cheapest world market price

thanks for the reply, it jolted my memory of how Britain went from a trade agreement(EFTA) with the common market to becoming a member of it (after being vetoed twice,I'm old enough to remember the indignity of not being allowed to join the common market by France.)

I still see lots of problems implementing subsidies for farming though as the legislation is a mixture of lots of different patches that have been done mostly by EU legislation since 1973, not to mention all the environmental legislation
 
thanks for the reply, it jolted my memory of how Britain went from a trade agreement(EFTA) with the common market to becoming a member of it (after being vetoed twice,I'm old enough to remember the indignity of not being allowed to join the common market by France.)
Well, it seems that the general was more farsighted than his successor about the UK :p
 
^Letting the euro have +1 inflation back when all this charade started in 2009. Do you think it would be worse than how things are now?

Not that it matters anymore, harm is already done both to the EU as a whole, and the South. Only in the South it cost also lives ruined, suicides and overall misery. In the north it just caused you to vote in more fascists to help keep the black peoples out.
So its a "yes". I'm not surprised.
As for overall misery and suicides... want to compare suicide rates? Or pensions?


You really ought to be a bit more grateful for northern politicians, who are btw still taking daily flak for "throwing money at Greece", i.e. supporting the bailout package.

But we probably shouldn't derail this thread any more...
 
Well, I understand you'd have preferred to have Ghaddafi "drowning the country in blood" (his own words). That's such a much more humane and peaceful option :lol:

As Yeekim pointed, you'll just find a way to blame the EU anyway : intervention ? It causes chaos ! No intervention ? EU is complicit of bloody tyrants !

Words said in a rhetorical context. If you know the least bit about the history of Libya you'd know that there were past rebellions and the country didn't "drown in blood" - there was evidence that he wouldn't follow up on that, even if he could. If it was serious, where is the evidence for it? Considering that military intervention happened only days after those statements?

The overthrowing of the Libyan government was a war sold on false motives. Just as the war in Kosovo, the second Iraq, and many others. Manufacturing enough consent to get the war started.
Then it must go on because it already started... create the facts on the ground and then they must be dealt with. Now libya stands destroyed as a state, and foreigners claim they must intervene to stop the anarchy...

Anything to justify your delirium, like all good fanatics do.

You'd be the kind of person who'd scare me, but hopefully you have such a tenous grasp on reality clouded by your anti-EU delirium that you can just be left aside the road clownishly droning on.

I called you a warmonger and have evidence to back it: you advocated for wars here. Can you show where I have been a "fanatic", or are you just resorting to kindergarten arguments?

When bereft of facts, try personal attacks against the messenger... those don't change the facts, do you know?

For the record: I'm not saying that some kind of EU leadership at the present (which is too fragmented to be that effective) is planning to go on war to acquire colonies... I'm saying that the goal of creating an european super-state is in itself one bound to create conflict, and to set the stage for some future form of rabid nationalism capable of causing catastrophe. That won't necessarily arise, but the sole reason I'm seen given for "deeper integration" is the creation of a more powerful European bloc to face the other world powers. This is a recipe for conflict, and if it requires sacrifices from the european population (as the eurozone currently does) which I believe can only be sold if packaged as a kind of european nationalism. I don't like where it can lead to.
 
So, EU pushed a trade deal, whereas Russia attacked a country that had previously given up their nukes and strategic bomber fleet to them, in return for a promise to respect their sovereignty & territorial integrity. And you focus on blaming EU?

Russia didn't attack Ukraine, russia "intervened" in order to prevent a bloodbath carried out by an illegitimate government... see how the same argument used to justify Libya could be used by Russia? That is why pulling that kind of crap is a bad idea. They at least didn't bomb Ukraine and had their pet rebels murder the president and turn the whole country to chaos.

If I recall correctly the trade deal was rejected by Ukraine's government. Then there was a coup and the new government announced it would accept it, together with a raft of measures directed against the russian-speaking Ukranian population. The EU poured gas and threw a match on an already unstable situation in Kiev.

If EU stops trade with autocrats (Putin) it is bad. If it trades with them (Erdogan), it is also bad. I hope you see your own bias here.

It is bad when an embargo is selective so that it hams some of the countries compelled to join it while exempting others.

Not that any trade deal struck by the EU has failed to do that. If the EU strikes a deal where it lowers barriers to trade in textiles and machinery with China, that will benefit some countries and harm others. One size fits all is a bad idea.

So you are saying we need to disband EU to stop rabid Greeks and Italians from staging a bloody Roman/Byzantine renaissance in Middle East?
This may be the best reason you've brought to table so far :lol:...

Joke now. Adventures in Africa are the least bad of some USE possible adventures, if such a polity comes to exist. I hope you never come to have reason to regret it.

Sorry, but what is your alternative? Eternal wild deficit spending paid by "loans" never to be repaid?

That can be made to work. The list of countries that actually repaid their national debts is very short.
It comes down to whether or not the monetary authorities are willing to back deficit spending. In the eurozone they are not. But no good economic reason has been offered to justify it. Their motives are political.
 
I called you a warmonger and have evidence to back it: you advocated for wars here. Can you show where I have been a "fanatic", or are you just resorting to kindergarten arguments?

When bereft of facts, try personal attacks against the messenger... those don't change the facts, do you know?
These two sentences together are just comical.
A dictator is about to crush a rebellion in blood, being happy with preventing him to do that is being a "warmonger". And then just chain it up with speaking about "personnal attacks when lacking argument" :lol:

And then after managing to defend Ghaddafi from military intervention, you manage to jump around and justify the agression from Russia.

There is really no point even trying to argue with fanatics. You're lost in your made-up world. That's pretty pathetic, but you've been at it for years so I don't have any illusion on the possibility to bring you to the real one.
Well, that was a waste of time to even answer you. Kinda as expected.
 
A dictator is about to crush a rebellion in blood, being happy with preventing him to do that is being a "warmonger". And then just chain it up with speaking about "personnal attacks when lacking argument" :lol:

Absolutely no blood was spilled by the "freedom bombs", I'm sure. And by the militias armed and supported by the countries doing the bombing. All is well when we take on the white man's burden of bombing brown people for their own good.

I will have no further discussion with you, ever. It's pointless.
 
I know it's crazy isn't it. Different people having differing opinions about what might happen in a fairly unpredictable situation. Who'd have thought it.
Which just goes to illustrate how this has gone into emotions ‘supported’ by half-baked arguments instead of long-term planning and serious analysis.
 
So the ECJ has ruled that imposing child benefit limits on non-residents is lawful, as might be expected. Of course, IDS has ranted about unelected judges, but maybe that's not hypocrisy and he wants to get rid of the House of Lords too. Maybe he's going to suggest that we elect all our judges after Brexit, because the Supreme Court (formerly associated with the House of Lords) would still fulfil the ECJ's role otherwise.
 
And we aren't taking into account the devaluation that might happen in July if Leave wins, right?

I'm referring to the pound devaluation pre and post Brexit. There is talk the troubles in China could have a knock on effect too.. Commodity prices, gold,silver,wheat etc could rise vs currencies.

It is possible that foreign money will feel that things are uncertain
and rebalance their liquid portfolios. I.e. the Russian oligarchs and
similar may move their money elsewhere.

The Remain campaign argue that this would be a disaster. I believe that
such money only corrupts and creates inflation, and is of no real benefit to us.

A devaluation would also be beneficial to inward tourism and to UK
manufacturers supplying the UK market, and increase the cost of offshoring.

Some good points there, also a devalued pound makes it more likely the foreign car manufacturers producing cars in the UK would stay as employing British workers gets cheaper.
 
Until we reform our tax laws, abolish tax havens and stop encouraging big business to bury their profits in lucrative tax loopholes, people will still keep doing it in this country, even if they get a lesser return on their investment.
 
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