Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[EnglishEdward]

Until we reform our tax laws, abolish tax havens and stop encouraging big business to bury their profits in lucrative tax loopholes, people will still keep doing it in this country, even if they get a lesser return on their investment.

Thank you for supporting the case for "Leave".

 

[Arakhor]

Really? Because of course the big bad EU is making us have a corrupt tax system, which is nothing whatsoever to do with our own governments' deliberate blind eye to such stuff.

Seriously, at this point, I think that you'd claim that a rainy day is a good reason to leave the EU.

 

[Takhisis]

I am getting the willies. A lot of the political ‘discourse’ coming from Gove, Johnson, etc. sounds like ‘Make Britain great again’.

 

[innonimatu]

Just want to say that this is the best text I've seen so far in the british press regarding the referendum.

 

[Takhisis]

Parliamentary supemacy? The very same thing that is opposed by the Lords, of all people?

 

[14thwarrior]

No. In a word No.

I wanted to say just no, but apparently you need a few more letters. So no. In a word No, may have to suffice.

Suffice to say, we are never going to leave because that would be dumb. It isn't going to happen ever, and the Brexit people need to get used to that. They wont of course. But reality bites.

You can of course thank all the people in the world for believing why we should, but it is just not going to happen: ever. So your thanks will be of shallow wit. No one is that stupid, and we never will be. Leaving Europe is quite the most stupid idea anyone could have. And I think you are deluding yourself if you have no idea why.

 

[Takhisis]

If doing ‘dumb’ things would never happen simply because, as you say, they are ‘dumb’, then how come Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron have been Prime Ministers since the '70s?

 

[Arakhor]

I don't recall Major being that bad, actually.

 

[Takhisis]

That's just because he was sandwiched in between Thatcher and Blair.

 

[14thwarrior]

If doing ‘dumb’ things would never happen simply because, as you say, they are ‘dumb’, then how come Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron have been Prime Ministers since the '70s?

I think you are reaching there, trying to make out bad decisions by voters, if of course we even assume they are, equates to bad decisions generally is a bad idea. That's a fallacy of consequence. If you want to make an argument for the Brexit campaign you have to have a solid argument, give it a try, I am all ears.

What is your argument about European inclusion, not what is your argument about x would be nice?

 

[Takhisis]

Sir, you appear to have mistaken me for a Brexiteer.

 

[14thwarrior]

Sir, you appear to have mistaken me for a Brexiteer.

Oops my bad then my posts were directed against the Brexits not you. I apologise.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Just want to say that this is the best text I've seen so far in the british press regarding the referendum.

Current example for the democracy deficit: As some of you may have heard, the EU is struggling with weather to approve Glyphosate for further use. That is a pesticide which is under suspicion of causing cancer and which about everyone living in the EU has in his or her body. People seem to mostly not like that idea at all.
German news covering this story was dominated by "the EU this" or "the EU that". Only accidentally, by listening to an educational radio channel (and who does that), did I become aware that a major reason why the EU may actually approve Glyphosate is that Merkel is strongly in favor of it.
I am not saying that Merkel's position was totally hushed in mainstream TV news or wherever. In fact, I am sure it came up, somewhere at some time. But what matters is, that this was not an integral part of the story. More like extra background info a casual news consumer is more likely than not to miss.
In effect, this means an erosion of responsibility. There is just this ominous foggy institution called EU. And those who do have the power, because of course they still exist, have to be less concerned with what people think. As Merkel in this case, who was more free to push for an approval of Glyphosate than she would have been if this was a sovereign German decision.

This pattern is nothing new, btw. Since many years it is a well established phenomena that politicians use the EU as a scapegoat. But I thought it served as a good demonstration how this works, why this matters, and why this means a weaker democracy.

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't recall Major being that bad, actually.

Haven't read much of him, and i was way too young to care when he was PM, but he does come across as one of the very few 'decent' people in politics.

I know that his position has always been pro-EU. Not sure how he now justifies it (it made more sense back when his party was europhobic for not much reason).

 

[EnglishEdward]

Really? Because of course the big bad EU is making us have a corrupt tax system, which is nothing whatsoever to do with our own governments' deliberate blind eye to such stuff.

Seriously, at this point, I think that you'd claim that a rainy day is a good reason to leave the EU.

You have not worked your own logic out. If Brexit means a fall in the pound as discussed
in this thread, investors in the UK get a lower rate of return on their investment.
You say they will still invest here if we do not reform so Brexit would not deter investment.
This contradicts the Leaver case that Brexit means lower investment.


If we Leave the EU, we can elect a UK government to reform tax.

If we Remain in the EU, it does not matter whether we elect a government
to reform tax or not, because the tax avoiders will just claim domicile or set
up companies in other member sates. e/g. Philip Green's wife in Monaco.

 

[EnglishEdward]

It is quite sad when one realises that a voter for Leave the MP Ambrose
Evans-Pritchard can make a more eloquent statement in favour of a EU.

My Europhile Greek friend Yanis Varoufakis and I both agree on one central point, that today's EU is a deformed halfway house that nobody ever wanted.
His solution is a great leap forward towards a United States of Europe with a genuine parliament holding an elected president to account. Though even he doubts his dream. "There is a virtue in heroic failure" he said.

than the person below who merely insults us.

No. In a word No.

I wanted to say just no, but apparently you need a few more letters. So no. In a word No, may have to suffice.

Suffice to say, we are never going to leave because that would be dumb. It isn't going to happen ever, and the Brexit people need to get used to that. They wont of course. But reality bites.

You can of course thank all the people in the world for believing why we should, but it is just not going to happen: ever. So your thanks will be of shallow wit. No one is that stupid, and we never will be. Leaving Europe is quite the most stupid idea anyone could have. And I think you are deluding yourself if you have no idea why.

 

[Arakhor]

If we Remain in the EU, it does not matter whether we elect a government to reform tax or not, because the tax avoiders will just claim domicile or set up companies in other member sates. e/g. Philip Green's wife in Monaco.

What has that got to do with anything? If we elect a government that reforms our tax codes, we do exactly that, whether or not we're in the EU. The ECB won't magically revert all those tax codes our ministers have clearly been wanting to reform, but just couldn't for whatever reason. I would say that you're putting way too much faith in a post-Brexit government, but you just want out, regardless.

 

[Akka]

If we Leave the EU, we can elect a UK government to reform tax.

If we Remain in the EU, it does not matter whether we elect a government
to reform tax or not, because the tax avoiders will just claim domicile or set
up companies in other member sates. e/g. Philip Green's wife in Monaco.

What's funny is that your own argument is actually pro-EU.
Because if you're not in the EU and you elect a government to reform tax, then the companies can pressure your government to not do such reform by threatening to go elsewhere.
If you're in the EU, you can lobby for a tax reform for the whole EU, and it would be much harder for companies to play the tax evasion game with a whole continent enabling penalties for such than a single country.

It's mind-boggling how half the anti-EU arguments are actually simply reversed reality and are pro-EU if you think about it.

 

[innonimatu]

What is happening the the UK? The Chancellor of the Exchequer just threatened the population with cuts in public services and higher taxes in at attempt to cower people into voting for remain? In cahoots with a former Labour Chancellor, who suddenly turned admirer of "austerity"? How low can these guys get?

He seems to have gotten himself an outright rebellion from his own MPs. It's looking like Corbyn will make it to PM sooner that anyone expected, while the tories tear their party apart.

 

[Takhisis]

Oops my bad then my posts were directed against the Brexits not you. I apologise.

To be fair, I rotundly condemn most of the arguments wielded by both camps and think that, in general, they are corrupt, opportunistic politicians who should be kicked out of office. Whether to temain part of the EU or not deserves a serious debate instead of the pathetic pantomime we are witnessing live.
However, these people, mostly Tories, who are making the headlines are more or less the same ones who spearheaded the 2014 effort to keep Scotland in the UK and got there by doing their best to bring the level of discourse down (and the Yes camp, to varying degrees, mostly took the bait). Now they are applying the same tools in favour of whatever their proposals are.

This vote doesn't have the voters it deserves. But maybe it'll end up deserving the voters it gets.

@innonimatu (edit): The Chancellor of the Exchequer did the same kind of thing in 2014. Doesn't surprise me.