Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Arakhor]

We cannot have an indiscriminate Brussels dictat telling us we must take even more (as sorry as we might be about the individuals concerned).

I'd be much more willing to engage the Eurosceptic side if stupid phrases such as those weren't used.

 

[Agent327]

You are utterly, utterly wrong to say it is only political and nothing to do with trade. This in today’s (admittedly Eurosceptic) Express suggests otherwise, does it not?

As Silurian and myself already suggested you should have a look at actual trade.

There is a phrase in The Rome Treaty and (I believe) every other treaty since that says ‘ever closer union’.

The Treaty of Rome is a declaration of intent. It has little to do with actual political developments. As already noted, but ignored by you.

The main reason why Britain’s economy is likely to overtake Germany’s has a lot to do with demographics – because of huge influx of immigrants into Britain over the last few decades, our population is likely to overtake that of both France and Germany in the next few decades. Immigrants tend to have a lot more babies than indigenous Brits and Germans. Hence the affect the sudden influx of 1m refugees into Germany will have over the next few decades.

Right. Britain's poor economic state unfortunately has nothing to do with demographics. Perhaps a course in economics might be useful for you, as you seem to have little grasp of it.

Lil’ ‘ol England is the most densely populated country in Europe

No, it's not. Not by a long shot. You're all about facts-free opinions, aren't you?

 

[Mega Tsunami]

I'd be much more willing to engage the Eurosceptic side if stupid phrases such as those weren't used.

And I would be more willing to engage the Europhile side if stupidly quoting out of context wasn’t used.
Did you read the rest of my post? Obviously not.

 

[Arakhor]

Where on earth did you get the idea I didn't read the rest of your post? Are you really that sensitive?

Besides which, saying that the Express is "admittedly Eurosceptic" is somewhat of an understatement. "Rabidly Europhobic" would be a better term.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

No, it's not. Not by a long shot. You're all about facts-free opinions, aren't you?

Population density is not a factor either. Spain is possibly the most sparsely polulated country in EU but we cannot take the immigrants and place them in the woods, deserts, mountains... People need jobs, food, water... that sort of things. At the end we all live packed in stinking cities.

 

[AdrienIer]

No, it's not. Not by a long shot. You're all about facts-free opinions, aren't you?

Indeed, England is the 2rd most densely populated in Europe, behind Malta and equal to the Netherlands. But as an actual nation the UK is also behind Belgium and with Germany right on its tail.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

As Silurian and myself already suggested you should have a look at actual trade.

Why won’t you listen – getting better trading agreements with the rest of the world is on of the reasons for leaving the EU!

The Treaty of Rome is a declaration of intent. It has little to do with actual political developments. As already noted, but ignored by you.

Like I said, the phrase is repeated in other Treaties and our exemption from this phrase is one of the four matters Cameron is busy negotiating about:

The Prime Minister's key demands for EU reform:
Iconic changes
• Getting an opt-out for Britain from the EU’s founding principle of “ever closer union”. This is intended to ensure the UK is never forced to join a new European superstate
The euro
• Explicitly writing into the European treaties that the EU is a multi-currency union, deleting references to the euro as the EU’s official currency
Practical changes
• Repatriating powers from Brussels to Britain, giving Parliament more autonomy and scaling back the influence of EU law on domestic affairs. Detailed work is already under way on this and European officials are understood to be considering calls for a so-called “red card” system to allow parliaments to block new EU directives
Major structural reforms
• To prevent the Eurozone countries forcing new rules on the nine other member states including Britain that are not in the single currency. Work has begun in Paris and Germany on drafting new arrangements that would guarantee protections for the City of London

Right. Britain's poor economic state unfortunately has nothing to do with demographics. Perhaps a course in economics might be useful for you, as you seem to have little grasp of it.

This shows just how ignorant you are of what is going on over here. Britain’s economy is booming, we are about to overtake France’s economy(if we haven’t already done so), we have low inflation, low unemployment. Every man, his dog and his extended family wants to come and live and work here.

No, it's not. Not by a long shot. You're all about facts-free opinions, aren't you?

Oh yes it is: (Why must I do all the googling for you?)

England has become the most overcrowded major country in Europe.
Population growth is so rapid that four times as many people will soon be crammed in as France and twice as many as Germany.

And if you look up density on wiki, you will see we are the third most populated major country (ignoring the likes of San Marino, Mauritius etc.) in the world behind only Bangladesh and South Korea.
Remember – I said England, not Britain or the UK. But you, in your ignorance about matters over here, obviously don’t know the difference.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fficially-Europes-densely-packed-country.html

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Where on earth did you get the idea I didn't read the rest of your post? Are you really that sensitive?

Besides which, saying that the Express is "admittedly Eurosceptic" is somewhat of an understatement. "Rabidly Europhobic" would be a better term.

I also said UKIP supporting. Something I don't do.

 

[Lillefix]

Why won’t you listen – getting better trading agreements with the rest of the world is on of the reasons for leaving the EU

Being a part of the EU makes the UK part of the biggest trade block in the world, which means a lot of leverage. Alone Britain will risk getting pushed around by the US, China, India and the EU.

 

[Agent327]

Why won’t you listen – getting better trading agreements with the rest of the world is on of the reasons for leaving the EU!

See last post.

Like I said, the phrase is repeated in other Treaties and our exemption from this phrase is one of the four matters Cameron is busy negotiating about:

Then he's a wee bit late. The UK has already opted out of a few 'ever closer unions' (which haven't materialized anyway, but let's not get factual). Secondly, the fact that the original phrase is a declaration of intent plus the fact that the phrase has been repeated in other documents should have told you it hasn't been implemented. Otherwise there would be no point in repeating. In fact, the mere fact that it is being repeated points to the exact opposite reality: there is no 'ever closer union'. As already pointed out, but hey, who cares about other peoples' comments anyway?

This shows just how ignorant you are of what is going on over here. Britain’s economy is booming, we are about to overtake France’s economy

The facts show differently - but then you don't check those, do you? Tradewise the UK is half the size of France's economy.

Oh yes it is: (Why must I do all the googling for you?)

Your Express quote was already disqualified on two occasions. But hey, who cares about what other people post, right?

And if you look up density on wiki, you will see we are the third most populated major country (ignoring the likes of San Marino, Mauritius etc.) in the world behind only Bangladesh and South Korea.
Remember – I said England, not Britain or the UK. But you, in your ignorance about matters over here, obviously don’t know the difference.

Oh you feel England is overpopulated. Not a problem: move to Cornwall, Wales or Scotland.

But perhaps you should be arguing then England should leave the EU. See how much popular support that will get. (Just a hint:not that much.)

Could be you haven't heard, but you're living in the kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the population density of England is not really relevant to immi-/emigration. Let alone to 'leaving the EU'. (Not that any serious party is entertaining that notion, but just to cover all angles.)

 

[Arakhor]

I never claimed that you supported UKIP, just that using phrases like "an indiscriminate Brussels dictat" is a stupid thing to do.

You then quoted the Daily Mail (also well-known for its decidedly immoderate views on Europe) claiming that England is the most populous major country in Europe, but England isn't a major country at all. It's just the major part of a major country in the EU. If you're going to split hairs, at least do it accurately.

 

[bhavv]

I support UKIP!

 

[really]

'ever closer union among the peoples of Europe' is from the preamble to the Treaty of Rome.

 

[Silurian]

Why won’t you listen – getting better trading agreements with the rest of the world is on of the reasons for leaving the EU!

How is this going to work.

The UK has been taking part in many trade negotiations for a number of years as part of the EU.

If we leave the EU before the negotiations are complete are we going to go to the countries we have been negotiating with and say we want to start again? If we do not start again are we going to let the EU negotiate on the UKs behalf after we have left? If we do not want to let the EU negotiate on our behalf will the other countries be willing or have the resources to restart separate negotations with the UK at the same time as negotiating with the EU. Or will the EU conclude negotiations on its own and then the other countries want the UK to use the agreement that the EU has agreed as the template.

If the negotiations we are taking part in, such as the ones with the US, are concluded before we leave are we going to go to the US and say we don’t like it now and we want to renegotiate.


From Telegraph

Major blow for Brexit campaign as US rules out UK-only trade deal
US Trade Representative says America has no interest in a trade deal with Britain alone, urging it to remain in the EU

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...paign-as-US-rules-out-UK-only-trade-deal.html

 

[FriendlyFire]

English votes will vote to leave, so the UK will. Which is good cause it will result in at least the scraping of the eurozone, although likely the coming world war would do that on its own anyway.

Greece should vote to leave the Eurozone
I'd imagine the coming World war of PAY DEBT, its where Germany invades and destroys all countries that owe it euromonies. (is joke ok)

 

[Agent327]

Funny man Kyriakos again. The UK isn't even part of the eurozone.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I support UKIP!

Not something one should be proud of.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Then he's a wee bit late. The UK has already opted out of a few 'ever closer unions' (which haven't materialized anyway, but let's not get factual). Secondly, the fact that the original phrase is a declaration of intent plus the fact that the phrase has been repeated in other documents should have told you it hasn't been implemented. Otherwise there would be no point in repeating. In fact, the mere fact that it is being repeated points to the exact opposite reality: there is no 'ever closer union'. As already pointed out, but hey, who cares about other peoples' comments anyway?

Ho hum.
‘Ever closer union’ refers to the wish of many in Europe to eventually become some sort of Federation, drip by drip by drip by drip. We have no wish to be part of that ever continuing process.

The facts show differently - but then you don't check those, do you? Tradewise the UK is half the size of France's economy.

Ho hum.
The size of the economy is commonly measured in GDP not trade.
Just look at this – the UK is well ahead of France.
http://knoema.com/nwnfkne/world-gdp-ranking-2015-data-and-charts

Your Express quote was already disqualified on two occasions. But hey, who cares about what other people post, right?

Ho hum.
It was the BBC and the Mail I quoted, not the Express – and the Mail was simply reporting what the Houses of Commons statistics said.

Oh you feel England is overpopulated. Not a problem: move to Cornwall, Wales or Scotland.

Ho hum.
Cornwall is part of England.

But perhaps you should be arguing then England should leave the EU. See how much popular support that will get. (Just a hint:not that much.)
Could be you haven't heard, but you're living in the kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the population density of England is not really relevant to immi-/emigration. Let alone to 'leaving the EU'. (Not that any serious party is entertaining that notion, but just to cover all angles.)

Ho hum.
It is England that is driving the ‘leave EU’ campaign. On the whole Scotland does not want to. England’s population is about c84% of the UK, so the population density of England will be one of the driving forces behind the question over controls of immigration from the EU.

I never claimed that you supported UKIP, just that using phrases like "an indiscriminate Brussels dictat" is a stupid thing to do.

You then quoted the Daily Mail (also well-known for its decidedly immoderate views on Europe) claiming that England is the most populous major country in Europe, but England isn't a major country at all. It's just the major part of a major country in the EU. If you're going to split hairs, at least do it accurately.

Err, England most certainly is a country, as is Scotland. (Wales and NI I am not so sure about).
And if you use the fact the English population is c 84% of the UK, you will find that 84% of the GDP on the list I mentioned above makes England just fractionally smaller than France.
I would call that a ‘major country’, wouldn’t you?

As I said previously, the Mail was just reporting stats from the House of Commons.

My point was that it is mostly the English that will be deciding this referendum. And if the English decide ‘we are full up’, that might just tip the vote in favour of exit.

(I personally hope it is not decided on that matter, but it might be.)

 

[Mega Tsunami]

How is this going to work.

The UK has been taking part in many trade negotiations for a number of years as part of the EU.

If we leave the EU before the negotiations are complete are we going to go to the countries we have been negotiating with and say we want to start again? If we do not start again are we going to let the EU negotiate on the UKs behalf after we have left? If we do not want to let the EU negotiate on our behalf will the other countries be willing or have the resources to restart separate negotations with the UK at the same time as negotiating with the EU. Or will the EU conclude negotiations on its own and then the other countries want the UK to use the agreement that the EU has agreed as the template.

If the negotiations we are taking part in, such as the ones with the US, are concluded before we leave are we going to go to the US and say we don’t like it now and we want to renegotiate.


From Telegraph



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...paign-as-US-rules-out-UK-only-trade-deal.html

You are right in that it won’t be easy at first but I am sure we will be able to get our own favourable agreements. The EU is bigger, yes, with more clout perhaps, but it is difficult for them to cater for 28(ish) countries. We only have 4 to take into account and as we are so well integrated already, it really is just one country to consider (in most cases).
Not easy, but what price freedom?

See last post

This was Agent327 maintaining trade would have no bearing on the referendum.

See below the link to a recent YouGov poll on our coming referendum.
As you can see, ‘setting up our own trade agreements’ is the 4th most important matter to the British People. So if Agent327 (or even Obama or King Canute) says otherwise that is irrelevant. If the voters of Britain think it matters, it matters. End of.


Meanwhile, back to reality…

This poll has it neck and neck at 41-41 (although this was before all the ‘Rapeugee’ stuff in Germany).
It is a good read for anyone interested.

People say that the outcome of Cameron’s negotiations will affect how they will vote. When we ask them "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union”, 41% say 'remain' and 41% say 'leave'. When we ask how they will vote if Cameron achieves only small reforms, it’s 37% 'remain' and 38% 'leave'. If Cameron achieves major reforms, it swings to 50% 'remain' and 23% 'leave'. If there are to be no reforms at all, it's 32% 'remain' versus 46% 'leave'.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/10/eu-polling-soft-leave/

 

[Silurian]

Ho hum.
It is England that is driving the ‘leave EU’ campaign. On the whole Scotland does not want to. England’s population is about c84% of the UK, so the population density of England will be one of the driving forces behind the question over controls of immigration from the EU.



Err, England most certainly is a country, as is Scotland. (Wales and NI I am not so sure about).
And if you use the fact the English population is c 84% of the UK, you will find that 84% of the GDP on the list I mentioned above makes England just fractionally smaller than France.
I would call that a ‘major country’, wouldn’t you?

As I said previously, the Mail was just reporting stats from the House of Commons.

My point was that it is mostly the English that will be deciding this referendum. And if the English decide ‘we are full up’, that might just tip the vote in favour of exit.

(I personally hope it is not decided on that matter, but it might be.)

Yes Scotland is a country just like England.

The arguments in the EU referendum campaign will be held up as arguments in the next Scottish referendum.

If people argue that the UK can get better trade agreements out of the EU why shouldn’t Scotland get better trade agreements out of the UK. Every argument the Euro sceptics make will have to also explain why it does not apply to Scotland.

I should imagine the Eurosceptics will just ignore Scotland for the most part. It does not look like the individual countries of the UK are going to get a veto.

Lets imagine that England votes 55% to leave the EU and the rest of the UK only votes 40%. So then there would be a small majority to leave, 53%, but an overwhelming majority to stay in the rest of the UK. Since there is no veto for the other countries there is no mechanism to take into account the overwhelming majority to stay outside England. If then the Conservative government tried to say the vote to leave was not substantially enough there will be disruption in the party.

So then the Scottish Nationalists begin preparations for another vote to leave the UK, and they use all the arguments that the Eurosceptics used to vote to leave the EU