Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Kyriakos]

God, three slogans, zero information, that's depressing...

Irony man was turned to steel, in the great magnetogorsk field..

 

[Mouthwash]

American youth might be moving politically to the left, but in Europe they're moving to the right

I get the feeling that the terminology isn't the same on both sides of the Atlantic. I understand "right-wing" as being nationalistic.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I get the feeling that the terminology isn't the same on both sides of the Atlantic. I understand "right-wing" as being nationalistic.

Nationalism is a subset of the right wing, but not all of it

 

[Atticus]

I get the feeling that the terminology isn't the same on both sides of the Atlantic. I understand "right-wing" as being nationalistic.

That's where Europeans have been shifting lately. It also includes racism, sexism, backlash against gay rights, intimidation of politicians and journalists.

The nationalistic right often employ rhetorics that sounds like the economic left (worry about unemployed, elderly etc), but when the push comes to shove, they'll gladly screw those groups over in order to prevent less white coming across the border. (Or as in Finland lately, just to try to remain their positions in power).

Then there's economical right, which is a whole different thing.

 

[Akka]

Yes

On race to the bottom: don't do it

"don't do it", that's your argument ?

Race to the bottom happens because a country wants to attract investors and outcompete other countries. The more competing countries there is, the more there is such race.
Low wages and worker rights means more profit for company, so they tend to move where they have such situation : that's why you have "made in China" everywhere, because it costs less in China.
The bigger a country (or, in this case, a union of countries) is, the more leverage they have to prevent this kind of thing, and the less competition there is between countries to dismantle their worker's rights (because they can harmonize them).

The EU, being pretty big, has as such a much better leverage to protect its workers than a bunch of unlinked European countries which would compete between themselves.

 

[Lohrenswald]

It's not an argument, it's a proposal. That countries do not intend to seek investors.

No I do not support the free market.

 

[REDY]

There are lot of differences between countries, for example being conservative means in eastern Europe be a communist. And being communist in eastern Europe is being nationalist. Thats why I was totally confused in first days on this forum Here unedecuated people outside cities vote left.

 

[dutchfire]

Am I reading the reports correctly that Labour MPs are calling for Corbyn's position because he was not pro-EU enough? A majority of Labour voters supported Leave and Leave was hugely popular among the working class Labour is supposed to represent. I'm not sure why they think that embracing Remain more will magically lead them back to electoral success.

(This is probably also a good moment to ponder how a position backed by 4 (well... 3.5) of the 5 major parties can lose a referendum, and what that tells about how well British representation is working.)

 

[AdrienIer]

That's where Europeans have been shifting lately. It also includes racism, sexism, backlash against gay rights, intimidation of politicians and journalists.

The nationalistic right often employ rhetorics that sounds like the economic left (worry about unemployed, elderly etc), but when the push comes to shove, they'll gladly screw those groups over in order to prevent less white coming across the border. (Or as in Finland lately, just to try to remain their positions in power).

Then there's economical right, which is a whole different thing.

Yes but the shift is not really coming from young people, it's mainly the middle aged working class who feels disenchanted with the left despite the fact that the left hasn't been in power for most of their life.

 

[Akka]

It's not an argument, it's a proposal. That countries do not intend to seek investors.

No I do not support the free market.

I also don't like the subordination of people to the power of the market (which should be a tool for prosperity, not an end in itself).
That being said, I fail to see how wanting to leave the only structure available which actually CAN have enough influence to get wriggling room about fighting such market, is going to advance your point.

 

[hoplitejoe]

Am I reading the reports correctly that Labour MPs are calling for Corbyn's position because he was not pro-EU enough? A majority of Labour voters supported Leave and Leave was hugely popular among the working class Labour is supposed to represent. I'm not sure why they think that embracing Remain more will magically lead them back to electoral success.

The party position was Remain, and Corbyn failed to bring labour voters to the remain side, and barely made any impact during the campaign. Not a strong look in a candidate. Fortunately for Corbyn, there aren't really any better options for Labour at the moment.

 

[Takhisis]

I watched David Cameron, MP speaking in front of Number 10, Downing Street. I felt sorry for the man. I also felt sorry for how England decided to make the Conservative Party's internal leadership selection process take the form of a referendum such as this one.

When I watched Boris Johnson's speech he seemed disappointed. Is it possible that his objective was to wear out Cameron's support so as to take over the Consrvative Party and become PM without having to wait for 2020, but thinking all the time that he wouldn't have to deal with the exit from the European Union? I just have the feeling that Cameron might have taken him somewhere out of the limelight and told him ‘You broke it, you fix it, Boris old chap, it's me off for a tot of whisky and an early night, ta-ta!’. Just a feeling, mind you.

At the moment I don't see how Scotland can stay in the UK, if one of the main arguments the UK establishment gave in 2014 -aided and abetted by unelected EU officials in Brussels- was that Scotland would immediately lose EU membership… of course, if I were the Scottish government I'd find a way not to tie my hands by joining the Eurozone. This proves that England's electoral weight alone can trump the will of any of the other ‘Home Nations’.

I mean that Britain at large has to not vote tories.

They already did last year, 70-30% against. The electoral system is skewed enough to give them an outright majority and the Lords (!) had to step in to rein the excesses of a power-drunk Conservative Party.

With Scotland probably leaving shortly I don't see a non-tory coalition winning an election anytime soon

Actually, that's a myth. Check the election results; whenever Labour have won a general election they've won it on the English vote.

That's where Europeans have been shifting lately. It also includes racism, sexism, backlash against gay rights, intimidation of politicians and journalists.

The nationalistic right often employ rhetorics that sounds like the economic left (worry about unemployed, elderly etc), but when the push comes to shove, they'll gladly screw those groups over in order to prevent less white coming across the border. (Or as in Finland lately, just to try to remain their positions in power).

Then there's economical right, which is a whole different thing.

Of course the nationalistic and economic right do that. For almost a decade, the UK's been punished by horrendous home-grown austerity -which is the only thing they know how to do- and all the time they've blamed ‘Europe’ -by which they mean the EU- for it.

 

[Atticus]

There are lot of differences between countries, for example being conservative means in eastern Europe be a communist. And being communist in eastern Europe is being nationalist. Thats why I was totally confused in first days on this forum Here unedecuated people outside cities vote left.

Have to admit that I didn't come even to think of it. But they vote communist left then and not the tree-hugging rainbow-flag-waving liberal hippies?

Yes but the shift is not really coming from young people, it's mainly the middle aged working class who feels disenchanted with the left despite the fact that the left hasn't been in power for most of their life.

True that, although in our politics they'd probably be called social democrats and not leftists. (Social democrats here on the other hand are workers' party mostly in their name).

For almost a decade, the UK's been punished by horrendous home-grown austerity -which is the only thing they know how to do- and all the time they've blamed ‘Europe’ -by which they mean the EU- for it.

Yeah, and it looks like it's the authoritarian thinking why they want to do it. No matter if some government spending would actually be more beneficial, because you have to have discipline, order and a strong leader, and that means austerity.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I also don't like the subordination of people to the power of the market (which should be a tool for prosperity, not an end in itself).
That being said, I fail to see how wanting to leave the only structure available which actually CAN have enough influence to get wriggling room about fighting such market, is going to advance your point.

The EU is designed explicitly to benefit the market at the expense of most people.

 

[luiz]

Fortunately for Corbyn, there aren't really any better options for Labour at the moment.

Eh, how about choosing a chimpanzee at the London zoo and putting him in a suit? Surely he will be smarter than Corbyn, and also more electable.

 

[Takhisis]

How dare labour field someone who is left-of-centre?

 

[Akka]

I watched David Cameron, MP speaking in front of Number 10, Downing Street. I felt sorry for the man.

Why ? He was the one starting this whole referendum stupidity as a trick just to keep being elected. He brought everything out of political shenanigan. He gets no pity from me.

When I watched Boris Johnson's speech he seemed disappointed. Is it possible that his objective was to wear out Cameron's support so as to take over the Consrvative Party and become PM without having to wait for 2020, but thinking all the time that he wouldn't have to deal with the exit from the European Union?

Considering the amount of politicians and even regular voters who were pro-Leave but who appeared surprised and dismayed by the Leave victory, I'd say the whole affair seems to have been thought as some yet another contest in hypocrisy and rhetorical populism, with lots of claims to appear as a champion of the people, but made only because thinking it would fail and they could continue to blame the EU without changing the status quo. Basically, the same thing that Cameron did.

Well, it blew up in their faces, now they have to actually take responsability, and it's obvious none of them had any kind of actual plan about it.

Of course the nationalistic and economic right do that. For almost a decade, the UK's been punished by horrendous home-grown austerity -which is the only thing they know how to do- and all the time they've blamed ‘Europe’ -by which they mean the EU- for it.

If there is one thing to fix first in the EU, it's this habit of using EU as a scarecrow. I'm pretty sure the majority of the bad opinion it gets, is because this systematic "blame the EU" habits that politician all over the continent have when they want to avoid responsability when they take unpopular decisions - after all, again, any decision taken at the EU level, is taken by these elected officials anyway.

The EU is designed explicitly to benefit the market at the expense of most people.

Again a slogan devoid of content or argument. You'll soon sound like Kyriakos. Care to add some actual substance to back up your claim ?

 

[Atticus]

Eh, how about choosing a chimpanzee at the London zoo and putting him in a suit? Surely he will be smarter than Corbyn, and also more electable.

Doesn't work. He's already committed to the Conservative Party.

 

[luiz]

How dare labour field someone who is left-of-centre?

That genre of left-wing politics worked wonders for Venezuela.

Corbyn was a great admirer of Hugo Chavez, all the way to the death of the dictator. I guess if Britons like the idea of having to fight for food and toilet paper, they should vote for him.

 

[luiz]

Doesn't work. He's already committed to the Conservative Party.

Indeed. And even Boris the Chimp can and will beat Corbyn if Labor is stupid enough to stick to that clown until a general election.