Typically immigrants come to a country for neither of those purposes; I'm not sure there are many immigrants thinking, "I'm going to the UK in order to change their culture". Nor would there be many immigrants thinking, "I'm going to the UK in order to embrace their culture". Whether culture is embraced or rejected is typically going to be a collateral issue.
Is Britain about to leave the EU?
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Typically immigrants come to a country for neither of those purposes; I'm not sure there are many immigrants thinking, "I'm going to the UK in order to change their culture". Nor would there be many immigrants thinking, "I'm going to the UK in order to embrace their culture". Whether culture is embraced or rejected is typically going to be a collateral issue.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Can you accept that the world is changing (as is usual) and the EU is on the way out, together with the world order that enabled it?
I don't pretend to know what comes next, but we can already see that it'll be "multi-polar world" with several "great powers" (no longer a single one plus its allies), and draw some possibilities from that. The EEC and later the EU was an american project for Europe, which rested on two premises that all participants could agree on: blocking the soviets/russians from dominating Europe, and keeping the germans from renewed regional hegemonic aspirations. But in the meanwhile the wold changed, the the russian threat collapsed and germany is again playing games. The EU's original goals were voided. And the third premise that made the US support the EU, that the EU would be the US' docile ally following its lead, is fraying even now as preferential trade treaties collapse and diplomatic differences abound.
This new "multi-polar world" is already one of continued crisis in the poorer zones, which are to be "policed" through interventions from the regional powers. And (unnecessary to say) kept from organizing to the point of challenging the regional powers trying to play hegemon in each region. These wars and refugee crisis are not going to decrease, quite the opposite. And the time will come when public discourse about drowned refugees in the Mediterranean will be only indifference or even "good riddance" stated openly (no longer muttered silently, as many do already).
Basically a return to the 19th century model of international relations. There is no place for a dysfunctional EU there, any more than there was a place for a HRE in the 19th century. It cannot unite because there are (at least) two major, conflicting political projects inside it.
The french destroyed Libya because it was threatening to weaken their influence in Africa, and are bent on using european resources (a "deeper union" with a "common military", just wait and see) to practice outright neo-colonialism ion that sad continent. It's going to fail because it'll clash with the other great powers: China, India, the EU, even Russia will intervene there also, and bleed the french and its allies until any european alliance they build collapses. Nothing new, colonial wars mark II...
The germans don't want to be pulled into that project, instead with to establish their own economic hegemony throughout Europe, or at least central Europe. But this will only increase nationalism in the affected countries. It's the same old failed german strategy... And when it fails (read: when german business is expropriated and expelled from those countries by nationalist governments) german militarism and revanchism over "historical claims" about "lost territories" will return. It was not so long ago that Kohl threatened to retake those territories by force if necessary...
These two (Germany and France) are the only states with a "transformative" agenda in the EU. All others are members only out of a mix of bribes (subsidies) and fear (of exclusion and being penalized). But even if they banded together they wouldn't be able to block these two inside the EU's institutions. And the third "great power" that did had an agenda (the UK, keep the status quo in Europe) has called quits. Which was a good call because it is impossible to keep the status quo: it's either the german of the french agenda. Either will end in disaster.
In this world where the military and economic power for interventions becomes crucial, there will be no room for "free trade", "international (financial) markets", or "free flow of people". There will be a "nationalist" crackdown on all these, borne out of the renewed competition between the great powers. The issue on the table is how the EU will break apart, not if.
Will these be just a thing that will happen whether we like it or not? I don't believe in political inevitabilities. But I fear that burying heads in the sand and pretending that the EU doesn't have these problems will guarantee that they'll happen, and it'll end in a very bad way. Denouncing the problems and dissolving the EU now, back towards a free association of countries that participate only in limited, unanimously supported projects, and exercise full sovereignty, is the best way to prevent both those destructive agendas from lead Europe to war.
Ajidica
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I don't buy that. While NATO and part of the ECSC were an American initiative, the idea of the Common Market and a political union in Europe was a solidly Franco-German initiative that -in theory- gave Europe an equal voice to America and the Soviet Union. My understanding of European integration is that successive US governments have treated it like that one person at a party who keeps chatting up your date and won't go away. We'd rather have Europe following our lead instead of thinking there is a 'Third Way' via European integration.
I'm starting to come to the conclusion you are just really Francophobic.
Françafrique has been limping along on life support since the 90's and the joke that was Operation Turquoise and the hilariously bad job the French did in supporting Mobutu/keeping Zaire around. I'm not particularly well read on recent Libyan history but I am not aware of new programs Ghaddafi had been doing to increase his regional influence. He had been trumpeting his "internationalist" credentials for decades -including their military debacles in Uganda and Mali- with little to show for it.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Historically, the United States had a great many immigrants that came here to be 'American'.
Whether you consider it collateral or not, it's still an important to the perception of the issue.
Given that some Poles who have been living and paying taxes here for years voted to Leave in the referendum over fear of immigration (or whatever else), I think they've adapted to our culture quite well.
Fair enough. But were those voting to leave the EU worried about Polish immigrants all that much?
Considering all the anti-Polish agressions since the vote I'd think so yes
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
I was unaware of this so had to look it up. Wow.
And equally historically, all those immigrants still have their own cultures.
A lot of things are important to perception.
Yes, despite comments here that of course the main reason wasn't immigration, it absolutely was for some people, given the undeniable rise in racist violence that suddenly exploded after the vote. Even more stupidly, blacks and Muslims have reported racist abuse, neither of which are native to the EU at all.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
LOL. I increasingly see Brexit as a product of collective mental diarrhea.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
I think it might be contangious.
EDIT: I posted about half the news article
Nigel Farage: EU Parliament 'declaring war' on Brexit talks
The outgoing UKIP leader told MEPs the ex-Belgian prime minister was the "high priest" of federalism and should be replaced by someone "who likes the UK".
He added: "I frankly think this appointment pretty much amounts to a declaration of war on any sensible negotiating process.
The European Parliament's approval is required before any settlement is agreed with the UK.
Mr Farage, who will officially step down as UKIP leader on Friday but remain as an MEP, criticised the appointment during a debate in Strasbourg, saying it showed the EU had not "learnt any lessons" from the UK's rejection of its membership.
..................
Mr Verhofstadt is one of three officials chosen by EU institutions.
He told MEPs earlier he didn't want to "punish" the UK but to build "sound relations" after the UK's departure.
Mr Verhofstadt, who was given the role of negotiator by the leaders of the main party blocs in the parliament, said he was not out for revenge against the UK and called for an end to what he said had been the "collective depression on both sides of the channel" after June's Brexit vote.
"Brexit is not a liability," he said. "I see it more as an opportunity...The British government wants to make from Brexit a success. Fair enough; it's their duty.
"But we have also our duty. And our duty, our responsibility is to make from Brexit a success for Europe, for all the citizens of Europe.
"Brexit is not a matter of punishment. It's not a matter of revenge... It's in my opinion a question of the sound relations between Britain and Europe."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37360383
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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I'm guessing Verhofstadt said all that stuff at the end of the article, even though they way it's worded makes it look as though Farage said it.
EnglishEdward
Deity
There is an interesting BBC interview with James Dyson who
has built an innovative engineering business worth billions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37357391
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
And this is how the Leavers reported it.
WTO rules wont work, unless the EU is willing to completely overlook border control requirements and all EU regulations. That would be like having a FTA without signing any agreement and removing all border checks. I think the leavers are in a Fantasy world, as the smaller economy the EU being larger is better positioned to handle any economic break.
WTO rules wont work, unless the EU is willing to completely overlook border control requirements and all EU regulations. That would be like having a FTA without signing any agreement and removing all border checks. I think the leavers are in a Fantasy world, as the smaller economy the EU being larger is better positioned to handle any economic break.
EnglishEdward
Deity
Given that some Poles who have been living and paying taxes here for years voted to Leave in the referendum over fear of immigration (or whatever else), I think they've adapted to our culture quite well.
Well now according to:
"And you cant vote if youre an EU citizen living here, unless youre from Ireland, Malta or Cyprus. Ireland has always had special treatment, and the other two countries are in the Commonwealth as well as the EU."
from:
https://fullfact.org/europe/who-can-vote-eu-referendum/
Polish nationals were not eligible to vote.
You dislike Leave voters, so if you know of any merely Polish nationals who
voted in the referendum, please report their details to the police for them to
be charged, tried, sentenced and given free travel home to Poland etc.
EnglishEdward
Deity
Please explain why not?
EnglishEdward
Deity
Of course our australian colleagues (FF) can not exit
from the EU because they are not members of it.
But downunder can still upstage us by exiting from the UN.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37335543
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Urh I guess MORE IMMIGRATION
Well the UK will be in charge of its own immigration policies, If it want more educated immigrants from India and China at least that would be more workable then the chaotic EU situation. But well its kinda ironic that the UK is leaving the EU to have allow more immigrants.
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