Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[EnglishEdward]

Agenbt327, JohannaK & Takhisis

Mega Tsunami is right.

Voting for a party list once every five years is not a "direct say".

 

[Traitorfish]

So why do you feel that you know anything about how the proles, a subset of "the people," are going to act?

Fifty percent past example, fifty percent wishful thinking. I certainly don't claim to have any insight into the "proletarian will": if the working class ever get it together and make a change to things, they're going to have to decide how they do that for themselves.

Attempting discern the "popular will" is always an exercise in religion, an act of devotion to some great and terrible force you hope is on your side, and the difference between electoral politics and fascist messianism in that regard s the difference between a priest attempting to discern the will of the gods by studying the stars and a shaman trying to do so by gargling reindeer piss. One is more systematic than the other, but not ultimately any more truthful.

What electoral politics produce is not a "popular will", but a consensus. Perhaps not on the actual policy, or even on the implementation on the policy, or even on the means by which the policy is implemented, but... Well, a consensus not set everything on fire, at least not all of it, and at least not all at once. It's the way we try to avoid all killing each other, and sometimes it works, and we should be honest enough with ourselves not to imagine that there's anything much more noble to it than that, however much we'd like there to be.

 

[Mouthwash]

You're by far the most charming Marxist I know.

 

[Traitorfish]

You're by far the most charming Marxist I know of.

Ladies love a good reindeer piss analogy.

 

[Arakhor]

Voting for a party list once every five years is not a "direct say".

How is that any different to elections in the UK?

MegaTsunami, it's all very well trying to rule by fiat if you have some nebulous "will of the people" with which to silence your critics, but it's Parliament that makes law in this country, not the Prime Minister, an issue that will be all the more salient once we actually leave the EU.

 

[EnglishEdward]

How is that any different to elections in the UK?

For the benefit of those not familiar with the United Kingdom, in the UK we get to vote
for a named candidate (on the ballot form), rather than for a party list, for the UK Parliament.

I understand that in the USA, each adult (not disqualified by being in gaol or for convictions for felony etc)
gets to vote three times and for individuals, not party lists, for Congress, President and Senate.

The United States is therefore three times as democratic as the European Union.

MegaTsunami, it's all very well trying to rule by fiat if you have some nebulous "will of the people" with which to silence your critics, but it's Parliament that makes law in this country, not the Prime Minister, an issue that will be all the more salient once we actually leave the EU.

I don't think any of us Leavers have ever said here that laws should be made at the whim
of the Prime Minister and without Parliament being involved.

Now sending a letter to the EU citing Article 50 does not make laws. It merely renders the
application of most of those EU laws, not cascaded down by secondary UK or Scots legislation,
inapplicable to those UK nationals residing and doing business inside the United Kingdom.
Furthermore Parliament was already consulted when it passed the EU referendum act.

And there is nothing nebulous about the will of the people with the Referendum result.

 

[Silurian]

I understand that in the USA, each adult (not disqualified by being in gaol or for convictions for felony etc)
gets to vote three times and for individuals, not party lists, for Congress, President and Senate.

The US President is not directly elected. He is elected by the electoral college.


Added

Not sure how the special relationship will go with Trump wanting to choose the UK ambassador

From The Guardian

"US president-elect Donald Trump has suggested that Nigel Farage, controversial leader of the United Kingdom Independence party, should be the UK’s ambassador to the US.

“Many people would like to see @Nigel_Farage represent Great Britain as their Ambassador to the United States,” Trump tweeted on Monday evening. “He would do a great job!”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/22/nigel-farage-uk-ambassador-us-donald-trump

 

[EnglishEdward]

The US President is not directly elected. He is elected by the electoral college.

Good Morning Silurian.

I wondered who would be first to pick up on that point? Well done! There is a separate thread for it so I will not discuss that here.

I recognise that the UK is an imperfect democracy, but in this respect I think that the United Stares is better (much as I pull my hair
and hate to have to admit it) than the UK, and the UK is better than the European Union.

Of course UK democracy could be further improved by having the second chamber, currently the
House of Lords, elected by the public, perhaps even by using proportional representation.

 

[Silurian]

Good Morning Edward.

Its just about stopped raining here in Devon.

I did not see a thread about ambassador Farage.

 

[Arwon]

For the benefit of those not familiar with the United Kingdom, in the UK we get to vote
for a named candidate (on the ballot form), rather than for a party list, for the UK Parliament.

Yeah but due to the simple plurality system used, most of you are left reading the tea leaves trying to work out who's most likely to defeat the candidate you dislike most in your district, rather than voting for your actual first preference.

in the USA, each adult (not disqualified by being in gaol or for convictions for felony etc)
gets to vote three times and for individuals, not party lists, for Congress, President and Senate.

The United States is therefore three times as democratic as the European Union.

You're gonna love this. In Australia this year we each voted for a minimum of 12 (and up to like 90) senators (by name or by party, as suits us) to fill the spots for each state. We also ranked every lower house candidate in our district in order that we prefer them, thus ensuring that the winner of each district is the most preferred by at least half of the voters there. And that's just federal.

At a state level, we might vote for another potential five to twenty (depending on state) upper house candidates each by name, and vote by ranking every lower house candidate again.

And again at local level, there's more multiple member constituencies and sometimes a directly elected mayor to vote for.

ALL THE DEMOCRACY. SO MANY BOXES TO FILL IN. AND VOTING IS MANDATORY DUTY. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN SO MANY BOXES FILLED IN.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Yeah but due to the simple plurality system used, most of you are left reading the tea leaves trying to work out who's most likely to defeat the candidate you dislike most in your district, rather than voting for your actual first preference.

I voted in favour of the alternative vote and was dissappointed in the outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum,_2011

You're gonna love this. In Australia this year we each voted for a minimum of 12 (and up to like 90) senators (by name or by party, as suits us) to fill the spots for each state. We also ranked every lower house candidate in our district in order that we prefer them, thus ensuring that the winner of each district is the most preferred by at least half of the voters there. And that's just federal.

At a state level, we might vote for another potential five to twenty (depending on state) upper house candidates each by name, and vote by ranking every lower house candidate again.

And again at local level, there's more multiple member constituencies and sometimes a directly elected mayor to vote for.

ALL THE DEMOCRACY. SO MANY BOXES TO FILL IN. AND VOTING IS MANDATORY DUTY. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN SO MANY BOXES FILLED IN.

It should work well, if you do not automate it.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Good Morning Edward.

Its just about stopped raining here in Devon.

I did not see a thread about ambassador Farage.

I nearly fell off my chair watching the BBC report on the
President elect Donald Trump's would be appointment.

I had not expected anything to tickle the funny bone quite as
much as Boris being Foreign Secretary, for some while yet.

 

[Arakhor]

For the benefit of those not familiar with the United Kingdom, in the UK we get to votefor a named candidate (on the ballot form), rather than for a party list, for the UK Parliament

Am I misunderstanding something or do you live somewhere where you get more than one candidate for each party?

The United States is therefore three times as democratic as the European Union.

Again, how is this any different to the UK?

Now sending a letter to the EU citing Article 50 does not make laws. It merely renders the application of most of those EU laws, not cascaded down by secondary UK or Scots legislation, inapplicable to those UK nationals residing and doing business inside the United Kingdom.

I don;t know if you're wilfully ignoring the issue that it would be the Prime Minister single-handedly stripping large numbers of people of legal protections without any recourse to Parliament. That is of course the precedent you wish to set, right?

And there is nothing nebulous about the will of the people with the Referendum result.

Which is of course why you know each and every motive of every Leave voter, other than they voted Leave. That is the very definition of 'nebulous'.

 

[Samson]

Again, how is this any different to the UK?

They get to vote for their Monarch and house of lords as well as their house of commons. It may or may not be better but it has to be more democratic.

 

[Arakhor]

So, it's essentially "the US is three times more democratic than the EU and the UK, but let's not mention the second bit, in case it torpedoes my argument"?

 

[EnglishEdward]

They get to vote for their Monarch and house of lords as well as their house of commons. It may or may not be better but it has to be more democratic.

Precisely.

 

[Samson]

So, it's essentially "the US is three times more democratic than the EU and the UK, but let's not mention the second bit, in case it torpedoes my argument"?

Ah, I did not see that, I read "more democratic than the UK".

 

[Arakhor]

Edward, you still haven't said why EU representation is so terrible compared to our very similar system in the UK.

 

[Takhisis]

I understand that in the USA, each adult (not disqualified by being in gaol or for convictions for felony etc)
gets to vote three times and for individuals, not party lists, for Congress, President and Senate.

The United States is therefore three times as democratic as the European Union.

Well, no. People in the US do not vote.

Edward, you still haven't said why EU representation is so terrible compared to our very similar system in the UK.

*Ahem*

 

[Traitorfish]

Not sure how the special relationship will go with Trump wanting to choose the UK ambassador

That was deranged, even for Trump. His willingness to overlook Farage's complete lack of any diplomatic background whatsoever isn't a surprise- he's clearly not a man who considers experience or expertise an important prerequisite to government office- but surely even Emperor Smallpaws understands that ambassadors are supposed to be representatives of foreign governments, not just some vacationing rando you've taken a shine to and who happens to have the right passport?