Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Evie]

I'm willing to accept and respect that for *some* people, dating is part of a long-term life plan that involves someday having (their own) children. Certainly there are others for whom dating is not that, and for them to claim infertility is something of a cop-out, yes.

 

[Akka]

7. Since she liked me before she found out I was trans, and did not like me after I found out I was trans, and nothing else changed ergo transphobia was involved in discriminating against me.

No. Just as not being interested in men, doesn't make you androphobic.

And yes, informations learned afterward can make attraction change, so it's perfectly possible to be attracted to someone, then learn something about them, and lose attraction. This post-information attraction has been explained in this very thread, you just have to read.

Are you open to the possibility that you may, someday, meet a trans person who could change your views on that matter?

That, to me, seem to be the crucial distinction.

I'm pretty certain I'll never encounter a man that I will want to date, nor that I'll ever want to date my sister.
Does that mean said crucial distinction fails and I'm androphobic and familyphobic ?

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm willing to accept and respect that for *some* people, dating is part of a long-term life plan that involves someday having (their own) children. Certainly there are others for whom dating is not that, and for them to claim infertility is something of a cop-out, yes.

I will join you in condemning being simply DTF as a morally repugnant life choice likely corellated with other morally repugnant life choices.

 

[Evie]

Ah, I have not condemned that, farm boy. Merely noted that they don't get to claim that dating is (to them) part of a long-term project that involves someday having children.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, you get what you get from the samples you select, I suppose. Family building is creepy early discussion in a DTF society. Shallow begets shallow, the language of shallow must be overcome.

 

[warpus]

What do you mean by "date?" If you'd never go on the social outing colloquially called a "date" with a trans person, then yeah, you're bigoted against trans people.

That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin. I reckon you're just trying to manufacture outrage where there is none, for whatever reason.

Why would I ever go on a date with someone I wasn't romantically interested in? Is dating me a right now, and not a privilege? Anyone who wants to date me should be able to, and if I say "no", I'm a bigot?

Crazy

Are you open to the possibility that you may, someday, meet a trans person who could change your views on that matter?

That, to me, seem to be the crucial distinction.

Maybe, but probably not. If you've ever had a penis or currently have one, chances are I will not be attracted enough to you to want to date you. I'll have a beer with you and go on a platonic rendezvous, but romantic notions about our relationship will likely never enter my mind.

You guys know that I can't control these feelings, right? I have nothing against trans people, and readily support their decision to live their life as they see fit, but being romantically involved with me is not a right, I'm sorry to say.

You understand that I wouldn't date most women, right? Whether they're trans or not? I have my own personal needs and wants that I can't control, and my dating preference reflect that. If I don't want to name all women named "Jackie" because they remind me of someone, then that is my right, and nobody's going to tell me I'm a bigot because that's a bunch of BS

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Not being interested in trans does not make you transphobic in and of itself. Revulsion toward trans does.

But as I said before, there is most likely an element of revulsion in not wanting to have sex with men when you're straight. You might phrase it as "not being interested", but that's just a semantic difference. It's an actively unattractive option, not just not attractive.

There is, however, a real difference between revulsion at the thought of having sex with someone, and a general revulsion at being near them or them even existing. Only the latter is x-phobic by any standard definition and trying to expand it to the former is, for want of a better term, problematic.

In the context of comparing homophobia and transphobia, yes, because homophobia is a sentiment based on sexuality and transphobia is a sentiment based on gender identity. Homophobia is certainly not a reaction to other people's gender or other people's gender identity, and treating it as such make absolutely no sense. "Not being interested in men is not homophobia" is a nonsensical, self-evident statement, because homophobia has nothing to do with another person's gender.

Yes, hence me replacing that with androphobia, even though that doesn't appear to be technically correct either. But whatever appropriate -phobia word you choose to use, it wouldn't be that.

And yes I know I'm editing after you've already replied but there's no going back now.

 

[Evie]

If you're open to the possibility that those feelings you can't control may someday lead you to being attracted to a transgendered person (even if it's unlikely, and even if it never actually happens), I'm not going to think of you as transphobic, no.

That, to me, is probably the key distinction. Because, yes, attraction is something you can't control. But for precisely that reason, you can never state with certainty you won't be attracted to someone you have never met/seen. So long as such people exist, the possibility that you may feel (uncontrollable) attraction to them exists, and is something you have absolutely no control over. When you do state with certainty you can't ever be attracted to people of group X, even those you have never met/seen...

...that's when your opinion starts being problematic.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

If you're open to the possibility that those feelings you can't control may someday lead you to being attracted to a transgendered person (even if it's unlikely, and even if it never actually happens), I'm not going to call you transphobic, no.

That, to me, is probably the key distinction. Because, yes, attraction is something you can't control. But for precisely that reason, you can never state with certainty you can't even be attracted to members of a sufficiently large group. If you do state, with certainty, that it will never happen, and can't ever happen...there is something more than attraction at play.

So why is it okay to say "I'm straight" or "I'm not attracted to men" then? I mean those are concrete, certain statements.

 

[Commodore]

Again, I'm also focusing on physical attraction, in which fertility plays no role in.

Fair enough. On that point, you won't get any disagreement from me. I was talking in terms of long-term relationships though.

This isn't really a "gotcha" argument at all.

It wasn't meant to be. I think you'll find you and I are more in agreement on issues regarding transpeople than you may think.

OK, I'll briefly sum it up in a brief hypothetical. You tell me where this breaks down for you

1. I am female/a woman, and at the time of this hypothetical, have underwent SRS. I am also attracted to women, so I am trying to date other women.
2. I go on a date with a woman. She is unaware of my medical history, but she is super nice to me, and in general we're super companionable
3. We have fun sexy times. Since I have the right parts, and well made parts to boot, nothing is wrong and we have a lot of fun
4. On the third date or so, I casually mention I'm trans because its directly relevant to a story I'm telling or what not.
5. Suddenly, she is no longer interested in me, and breaks off the relationship.
6. The only thing that changed is the added knowledge of my past medical history. For all intents and purposes, I was her ideal woman until she found out I was trans.
7. Since she liked me before she found out I was trans, and did not like me after I found out I was trans, and nothing else changed ergo transphobia was involved in discriminating against me.

Another possibility is that the other woman could be feeling lied to since you never told her you were trans from the get-go. She may also be feeling that if you hid that fact from her until the third date when it casually slipped out, there could be other things you are hiding from her as well which would create trust issues in her mind. Now, I'm not saying you should be obligated to reveal that information if you don't feel it's relevant, I'm just giving another possibility besides transphobia why the hypothetical woman in this scenario would break things off with you.

The main point being that you never truly know what's going on in someone's head or the real reasons for why they do what they do. So to assume transphobia without concrete proof that is the person's true motivation for their actions is a little unfair.

 

[warpus]

Of course those feelings could change. We don't control what we're attracted to. Maybe one day I'll be really attracted to really fat women, who the hell knows. Right now I can tell you with 100% certainty that I would never date someone who doesn't seem to some degree fit and healthy. It's not because I hate fat people. It's not because I have anything against them. It's because I don't see myself entering in a romantic relationship with somebody like that.

And that's fine.

People are just coming up with ridiculous reasons to get outraged over..

 

[metalhead]

I'm willing to accept and respect that for *some* people, dating is part of a long-term life plan that involves someday having (their own) children. Certainly there are others for whom dating is not that, and for them to claim infertility is something of a cop-out, yes.

I'd be pretty surprised if it was more than a tiny minority of people who took dating so seriously that they pre-screened every single person they went out with to see if they fit that long-term plan and flatly refused to even consider going out with someone who didn't tick all the right boxes in that regard.

And yes, informations learned afterward can make attraction change, so it's perfectly possible to be attracted to someone, then learn something about them, and lose attraction. This post-information attraction has been explained in this very thread, you just have to read.

If you are attracted to a woman and then stop being attracted to her solely on account of learning she is trans, then that is textbook transphobia. Being attracted to someone is not at all the same thing as believing them to be a suitable life partner.

That's so ridiculous I don't know where to begin. I reckon you're just trying to manufacture outrage where there is none, for whatever reason.

Why would I ever go on a date with someone I wasn't romantically interested in? Is dating me a right now, and not a privilege? Anyone who wants to date me should be able to, and if I say "no", I'm a bigot?

Where did I say I was outraged?

If the only reason you have for not being romantically interested is that the person is trans, then what else would you call that besides transphobia? Turning down a date with someone you aren't physically attracted to is of course perfectly fine, but if you're making that decision based on something completely secondary to the issue of physical attraction, then I don't think you're being honest about your reasons for not wanting to date a trans person.

As has been pointed out above, aside from fertility there is no physiological difference between a post-op trans woman and a cis woman. You can carry out a romantic relationship if you want, the only thing you can't do is reproduce with that person. So then what is your basis for concluding categorically that you'd never be romantically interested in a trans person?

 

[Commodore]

I'd be pretty surprised if it was more than a tiny minority of people who took dating so seriously that they pre-screened every single person they went out with to see if they fit that long-term plan and flatly refused to even consider going out with someone who didn't tick all the right boxes in that regard

It just depends on where people are at in their lives. The people who do take dating seriously are the ones who have reached a point in their lives where they want to settle down and get married. Those very same people also most likely went through a "party" phase where dating and sex were just another form of fun.

 

[warpus]

If the only reason you have for not being romantically interested is that the person is trans, then what else would you call that besides transphobia? Turning down a date with someone you aren't physically attracted to is of course perfectly fine, but if you're making that decision based on something completely secondary to the issue of physical attraction, then I don't think you're being honest about your reasons for not wanting to date a trans person.

As has been pointed out above, aside from fertility there is no physiological difference between a post-op trans woman and a cis woman. You can carry out a romantic relationship if you want, the only thing you can't do is reproduce with that person. So then what is your basis for concluding categorically that you'd never be romantically interested in a trans person?

This has already been explained.

If you're ever had your own penis, or currently have one, I couldn't date you. I don't hate you, we could perhaps be friends, we could throw a frisbee around, and go for a pint, but I just couldn't date you. This is not something I can control.

Again: The pool of people I am willing to date is very small. And unfortunately whether you've at some point had a penis attached to your forehead or your crotch area, you wouldn't make the cut. Neither would women who are obese. Neither are women who work in certain industries. Neither are women who are overly materialistic. I could go on and on and on..

Dating me is not a right. Your point of view is hilarious baffling

 

[Evie]

Warpus - let's not confuse "being attracted to" and "pursuing a relationship with" (or dating). There are a number of reasons you might be attracted to someone yet not pursue a relationship with them. The fertility issue we've been discussing here is one ; fitness and healthiness might be another. Of course, there are also plenty of *bad* reasons not to want to date people (despite attraction), but that's a wholly separate discussion.

And, like I've also said - it's okay that, as of now, you haven't met any overweight people who attracted you. It happens. But it seems to me like you admit that it's possible an attractive, overweight person *could* exist somewhere in the world and you just haven't met them. That's the key distinction. If you can't control those feelings (and you're right, you can't), then by extension you can't know ahead of time with certainty how you're going to feel about people you haven't met. Thus, you must recognize the possibility (however slim) exist that you'll someday be attracted to such a person.

If you can't control your attraction, you can't state for sure ahead of time whether or not you'll be attracted to a person you have yet to meet. You can have a good guesses, but you'll never know for sure until it happens whether or not you are attracted to these people

 

[Senethro]

No. Just as not being interested in men, doesn't make you androphobic.

And yes, informations learned afterward can make attraction change, so it's perfectly possible to be attracted to someone, then learn something about them, and lose attraction. This post-information attraction has been explained in this very thread, you just have to read.

I'm pretty certain I'll never encounter a man that I will want to date, nor that I'll ever want to date my sister.
Does that mean said crucial distinction fails and I'm androphobic and familyphobic ?

Yo if a dude was dating a transwoman and called himself straight, would you actually consider him gay just as you consider tranwomen to be actually men? If you were a bouncer would you throw transpeople out of the what you consider to be the wrong bathroom? If you were a doctor would you go against medical guidelines?

 

[Ryika]

If you are attracted to a woman and then stop being attracted to her solely on account of learning she is trans, then that is textbook transphobia.

I'm not so sure about this.

Say a person who is 25 dated somebody who they thought is around 25. Then they find out they're actually 30.

I think it's a reasonable to assume that that will tick some people off, and that it would be a dealbreaker for some people and completely destroy the attraction that they felt for that person before. Not because they have a hatred against older people, not because having a partner who is 5 years older is bad, but just because they're not within the parameters of what this person "feels" to be the right partner for them.

I don't think making the assumption that this feeling comes from prejudice as a generalized statement is valid.

 

[warpus]

Warpus - let's not confuse "being attracted to" and "pursuing a relationship with" (or dating). There are a number of reasons you might be attracted to someone yet not pursue a relationship with them. The fertility issue we've been discussing here is one ; fitness and healthiness might be another. Of course, there are also plenty of *bad* reasons not to want to date people (despite attraction), but that's a wholly separate discussion.

You seem to be implying here that beyond attraction dating is a right.

It's not. It doesn't matter whether I am attracted to someone or not, there are a plethora of other reasons I could have to not want to date someone. Maybe it's something as petty as them liking a certain designer who I hate. I don't want to see his clothes around my house. Petty? Silly? Yes, perhaps. But dating me is not a right, unfortunately, so I get to have as many stupid reasons for not wanting to date someone as I want, whether it's the type of cheese they like, or really being into some sport I could never enjoy, or any other half-assed reason I have that would make me think that this person wouldn't be a good match for me.

She dated Ben Affleck and had a threeway with Tom Green? Sorry, but I don't see this person in my life as my romantic partner, so even if I'm super attracted to her, I won't date her. << This is not necessarily a real reason I have for not wanting to date them, but it would be perfectly fine if it was.

Like I've already said, I wouldn't even date the majority of the women on the planet. I don't have to explain to you or to anyone else what variables I consider when I make that decision. This is my decision to make.

Just because I don't want to date you doesn't mean that I hate you. It just means I'm not interested in a romantic relationship with you, so I'm not going to go on a date with you and get your hopes up. That would be a jerk move.

And, like I've also said - it's okay that, as of now, you haven't met any overweight people who attracted you. It happens. But it seems to me like you admit that it's possible an attractive, overweight person *could* exist somewhere in the world and you just haven't met them. That's the key distinction. If you can't control those feelings (and you're right, you can't), then by extension you can't know ahead of time with certainty how you're going to feel about people you haven't met. Thus, you must recognize the possibility (however slim) exist that you'll someday be attracted to such a person.

Dudes, this isn't that complicated. If you feel like the person asking you out on a date is a good match for you going forward, and if you see a potential romantic relationship there, you say "Yes". If you want to you can say "No". Just because you say "No" doesn't mean you hate the person or are a racist or a sexist or homophobe or transphobe or islamophobe or anything else.

To suggest that it might be is pure insanity.

The only way to be a transphone in this situation is outright saying: "Hell no, I won't hate people like that, I hate them"

 

[metalhead]

This has already been explained.

If you're ever had your own penis, or currently have one, I couldn't date you. I don't hate you, we could perhaps be friends, we could throw a frisbee around, and go for a pint, but I just couldn't date you. This is not something I can control.

Again: The pool of people I am willing to date is very small. And unfortunately whether you've at some point had a penis attached to your forehead or your crotch area, you wouldn't make the cut. Neither would women who are obese. Neither are women who work in certain industries. Neither are women who are overly materialistic. I could go on and on and on..

Dating me is not a right. Your point of view is hilarious baffling

My point of view is that you're transphobic. You're willing to own up to being transphobic but then are complaining about me saying it. That's the only baffling thing. You're trying to make a comparison to other characteristics, but those other characteristics - obesity, the type of work they do, their personality - are all germane to either their physical attractiveness or intellectual/emotional compatibility in a way that a person being trans does not.

Would you date a woman who was fat as a kid but has maintained a fit, healthy lifestyle throughout her adulthood?

Moderator Action: Please remember that under CFC rules:

1. Explaining that you think a post or a point of view is transphobic, and explaining what makes you think that, is acceptable, provided that you remain civil.
2. Calling another poster transphobic is not acceptable.

To put it as a maxim, address the post, not the poster. The same principle applies to allegations of racism, sexism and so forth. This is the standard that will be used for infractions. FP
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[warpus]

I'm sorry dude but I'm going to have to put you on ignore because you're

1. Being daft on purpose

2. Insulting me for no reason

3. Making unfounded allegations of transphobia against me that are making me upset

I'm sick and tired of your nonsense, so goodbye

If you want to apologize you can go ahead and do so via the PM mechanism we have on here, but no guarantees as to how I will react

Moderator Action: Advertising putting people on your ignore list is against the rules. Please try to avoid this in the future. One point! - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889