Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Evie]

Whether or not I am a man is not "a preference", Akka. No matter how much spin-doctoring you do.

It is your opinion, clearly. And you are entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to my opinion of that opinion. Namely, "it's transphobic".

 

[Manfred Belheim]

If a gynecologist can't tell the difference, what does it matter to you?

Well... there's the whole "lubrication" issue isn't there? Maybe that's a question for another thread though.

 

[emzie]

Well... there's the whole "lubrication" issue isn't there? Maybe that's a question for another thread though.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...d-about-the-t-in-lgbt-ask-me-anything.564518/

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't agree, but that's honestly completely beside the point.
The point was that you can be attracted to a person with the amount of information you have, but suddendly lose all attraction when you learn more. It's normal and not linked to any sort of dirty "ism" word.

Are you really "losing all attraction"? I get that because of some conscious choices regarding internalizing taboos you are choosing not to act on the attraction, but does the unconscious attraction disappear?

Now, since you brought it up and Emzie learned something, let's make sure we get this right:

Westermarck Effect occurs over an extended period of time. It is not "oh it turns out we're cousins, ugh" instantaneous. It happens when you spend time in situations where you are routinely exposed to stimulation but not allowed to act on it, leading to the stimulus becoming ineffective. One example is siblings. Another, as I mentioned, is gay men in prison. Prison was tough for me because there were no women, but much tougher for my gay friend who was surrounded by attractive men that he couldn't have and who did not have a whole lot of privacy. Over time he got desensitized.

When I ran a college aquatic center I saw another example. People who make it onto a highly ranked college swim team have been in competitive swimming all their lives. To them, finely honed bodies in swimwear are no more stimulating than a dive block. The idea that wrapping a towel around yourself and stripping off a wet swimsuit while standing on a crowded pool deck might be arousing is totally lost on them.

They are desensitized. "Repulsed" does not enter into Westermarck Effect at all.

 

[Akka]

Whether or not I am a man is not "a preference", Akka. No matter how much spin-doctoring you do.

Whether or not I perceive you as a male is a preference. My perception of you can be different than your perception of yourself. Hence the parallel with the ugly/beautiful girl.

Now I understand you don't really care about what others can think and you just want to enforce your opinion (isn't it amusing ? It's exactly against such behaviour you claim you fight, and you're the one using it), but it doesn't change the facts, no matter how much spin-doctoring you do.

It is your opinion, clearly. And you are entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to my opinion of that opinion. Namely, "it's transphobic".

It's certainly easier to brand anyone you don't like the opinion as "something-phobic" rather than to face the difficulty of a non-binary outlook on life. It's even the favourite past-time of a number of our posters here.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...d-about-the-t-in-lgbt-ask-me-anything.564518/

Yes I'm aware of the thread thanks...

 

[Akka]

Are you really "losing all attraction"? I get that because of some conscious choices regarding internalizing taboos you are choosing not to act on the attraction, but does the unconscious attraction disappear?

If you really can't imagine that someone would be grossed out by the idea of screwing his sister, then I can direct you back to my other example of the pretty girl with an ugly set of values.

Unless it's simply that you won't accept any other answer than "yes you're right in fact it's just that I'm a dirty [whatever]-hater". In which case the whole discussion is pretty pointless, because there is no real interest in what people think, just a way to find pretext to put them in the bigotbox.

 

[Evie]

Your "preference" is leading many people who share it to actively oppose my rights and advocate for treating me legally in accord with such "preference", ie as a legal man. It's a "preference" that in the long term may lead to me being attacked or harassed by police for being in the bathroom that matches my gender ; or by insecure little men who see me as a "trap" trying to lure them into "gay" acts. It's a "preference", in other words, that's directly harmful to me.

In advocating for the legitimacy of that preference, you are legitimizing their preferences, and the measure they propose regarding those.

Live and let live doesn't work when people who share your preference are pointedly doing their best to not let me live.

 

[Akka]

Your "preference" is leading many people who share it to actively oppose my rights and advocate for treating me legally in accord with such "preference", ie as a legal man. It's a "preference" that in the long term may lead to me being attacked or harassed by police for being in the bathroom that matches my gender ; or by insecure little men who see me as a "trap" trying to lure them into "gay" acts. It's a "preference", in other words, that's directly harmful to me.

Yeah, I'm not going to sugar-coat it for people who express that "preference". There's no "live and let live" with a "preference" that doesn't want to let (you) live.

If I find a girl ugly and she considers herself beautiful, this neither means I'm denying her person, nor that she can try to use emotional blackmail to claim I should want to date her and find her attractive. She has no right to tell me what I should like or not.

You're trying to claim that my sexual preferences are causing you to be oppressed. That's ridiculous and just a pretty pathetic attempt at emotional blackmail. And a completely pointless at that : even if I was cowed by this and made a fake smile and pretended to agree, I would still not be attracted to you.
But yay, you'd have shamed someone on the Internet, which seems to be the only real objective ?

 

[Evie]

No ; I am not.

I am trying to claim that "To me you're still a man" is the root cause of oppression against me. You made that statement.

You've spent the past page or two trying your darnedest to pretend I have a problem with your sexual preferences. I don't. You can be attracted to me or not be attracted to me (God knows I'm not attracted to you in the least) all you want. I have a problem with you stating that to you, I'm still a man, because that is, in fact, the root cause of oppression against trans people.

If you want to withdraw that particular part of your statement, or rephrase it in a way that does not feed into the "still a man" sentiment ("...because it'd be hard for me not to perceive lingering masculine features, and masculine features are a major turn off"), go ahead, and I'll let it go.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you really can't imagine that someone would be grossed out by the idea of screwing his sister, then I can direct you back to my other example of the pretty girl with an ugly set of values.

Unless it's simply that you won't accept any other answer than "yes you're right in fact it's just that I'm a dirty [whatever]-hater". In which case the whole discussion is pretty pointless, because there is no real interest in what people think, just a way to find pretext to put them in the bigotbox.

No, I'm not trying to put you in the bigot box.

I'm grappling with the distinction between "unconscious attraction" and the various conscious responses that overlay them. If the attraction is truly "unconscious" then I don't think it is subject to change. The visual cues are all still there. I went through a period after my first divorce where I really hated my ex-wife. I mean see-red-seriously-consider-murder-on-the-spot level hatred, which she did everything she could think of to exacerbate. But it was annoying that any time she shut up for a minute my testicles would say "she's really hot, you should calm down and try to get some of that." The attraction never changed.

I'm thinking that the responses you describe come from having internalized taboos. That may have been just as unconsciously, and I am not trying to fault you for it. I'm just thinking that it really is distinct from attraction or lack thereof.

So, question for speculation:

You meet the girl. She is "attractive," meaning that she activates whatever set of visual cues 'do it' for you. At some point you realize she is the long lost product of a tryst your parent had, so, your sister. We know your response there, but I think that she still meets your particular set of visual cues. So to me what we have is a case of attraction that you are determined, consciously or unconsciously, not to act upon rather than a lack of attraction.

Now, a new revelation. Long lost sister, as it turns out, is an aspiring actress and when you met her she was made up and costumed as a stand in...a position she was chosen for because of her remarkable semblance to Hottie Actress X, who she introduces you to. Do the visual cues of Hottie Actress X attract you, or have your tastes been altered by the experience?

 

[Commodore]

No ; I am not.

I am trying to claim that "To me you're still a man" is the root cause of oppression against me. You made that statement.

You've spent the past page or two trying your darnedest to pretend I have a problem with your sexual preferences. I don't. You can be attracted to me or not be attracted to me (God knows I'm not attracted to you in the least) all you want. I have a problem with you stating that to you, I'm still a man, because that is, in fact, the root cause of oppression against trans people.

If you want to withdraw that particular part of your statement, or rephrase it in a way that does not feed into the "still a man" sentiment ("...because it'd be hard for me not to see lingering masculine features, and these would be a turn off"), go ahead, and I'll let it go

So you want him to change his opinion? Hmm...

It is your opinion, clearly. And you are entitled to it.

Trying to get him to change his stance on the issue or get him to roll back what he said makes it look like you don't really believe in the above statement.

 

[Evie]

That, Commodore, is a frankly delusional reading of "you are entitled to your opinion".

Being entitled to your opinion doesn't mean no one should ever attempt to change it. It means that I won't call the authorities (whether mods, police, or whatnot) on him for expressing that opinion, because he has, in fact, the right to express it.

 

[Akka]

No ; I am not.

I am trying to claim that "To me you're still a man" is the root cause of oppression against me. You made that statement.

You've spent the past page or two trying your darnedest to pretend I have a problem with your sexual preferences. I don't. You can be attracted to me or not be attracted to me (God knows I'm not attracted to you in the least) all you want. I have a problem with you stating that to you, I'm still a man, because that is, in fact, the root cause of oppression against trans people.

If you want to withdraw that particular part of your statement, or rephrase it in a way that does not feed into the "still a man" sentiment ("...because it'd be hard for me not to perceive lingering masculine features, and masculine features are a major turn off"), go ahead, and I'll let it go.

In other words, you just want to control what is in the heads of others. Good luck with that, and don't come back to complain when others try to do the same with you, because you've proved to be the exact same thing than they.

No, I'm not trying to put you in the bigot box.

I'm grappling with the distinction between "unconscious attraction" and the various conscious responses that overlay them. If the attraction is truly "unconscious" then I don't think it is subject to change. The visual cues are all still there. I went through a period after my first divorce where I really hated my ex-wife. I mean see-red-seriously-consider-murder-on-the-spot level hatred, which she did everything she could think of to exacerbate. But it was annoying that any time she shut up for a minute my testicles would say "she's really hot, you should calm down and try to get some of that." The attraction never changed.

Well, you're different than me then.
I had the same kind of bad experience with an ex - the "I absolutely hate her" part. It completely killed any kind of sexual attraction I had for her. And also, well, the example of the hispanic girl I already directed you to, but that you seem to have overlooked (and which answers the rest of your post).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So you want him to change his opinion? Hmm...

I don't know that anyone wants him to change his opinion. The question is about the consequences of expressing such opinions.

I have no problem with your opinions on a wide range of topics, even when I disagree with them. I also support your freedom to express those opinions.

However, when the subject of your opinion is me, I have a vested interest in how you express it, and deserve as much consideration as your freedom to express yourself...possibly more.

 

[Evie]

When have I ever complained that other people were trying to change my opinion?

 

[Disgustipated]

The question is; if he found out that his light skinned date that met all his usual visual cues was actually of African American heritage how would he respond?

Wouldn't bother me in the least bit. I should have clarified my post a bit. I just find certain characteristics more attractive. Someone like Halle Berry I'd date in an instant. Halle, if you are reading this, call me.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Wouldn't bother me in the least bit. I should have clarified my post a bit. I just find certain characteristics more attractive. Someone like Halle Berry I'd date in an instant. Halle, if you are reading this, call me.

So, question. If you found out the girl you are dating, that clearly meets all your visual cues, was born male, would it bother you? If so, why?

 

[Disgustipated]

So, question. If you found out the girl you are dating, that clearly meets all your visual cues, was born male, would it bother you? If so, why?

It's hard to say unless it actually happens to me. But it probably would bother me because they are hiding something pretty big. You said dating, which implies at least a time span of several weeks. I'm not expecting to know everything about my partner, but a life changing event should be on that list of what I do know about my partner. I knew these things about my past gf (it wasn't like she said she was never married and didn't have kids). And yes, the possibility of having children is important to me.

And while I can't say this for sure, I'm reasonably sure the personality of someone who was female their whole life is different than one who changed to female later in life. Experiences as a kid are important, and do shape your personality. Even negative experiences.

 

[Akka]

I don't know that anyone wants him to change his opinion. The question is about the consequences of expressing such opinions.

You must have read some pretty different posts than me, because it's very clear that someone wants me to change my opinion into their.
And funnily, as pointed several times, it's eerily close to the actual homophobic arguments : "well, like men if you want, but don't say it and don't express it" (of course with the obvious difference that there isn't any of the stigma or hardship about being homosexual, but the principle of wanting to enforce an opinion about sexual preferences is a carbon copy).