Is the Universe alive and intelligent?

[El_Machinae]

Would be an understatement to call that an understatement

It is. Neuroscience is a lot more progressed on this front than you realize. The specific reactions are a bit more fine than we can currently consistently measure, but we've got a reasonable understanding of the macro neuro-architecture, and our ability to program machine learning based on sensory input is only getting better and better.

It's really not bad progress considering it doesn't really have a funding source.

 

[brennan]

Not true. We know why 2H+O=Water. Molecules, electrons, reactions. We can explain the why. Not only observe the how.

How is 'atoms combine to make molecules therefore water can exist' any different from the suggestion that neurons can combine to produce a conscious brain? Both are simple statements of emergence.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Because in the first case the sum is not larger than its parts. So there are no forces at play which are unaccounted for.

 

[Bugfatty300]

sigh

Nuance is not your strong suit, is it.

At least not in the context you seemed to be using. Perhaps, try not use a loaded word like magic in such a vague fashion.

 

[brennan]

Because in the first case the sum is not larger than its parts. So there are no forces at play which are unaccounted for.

So add more atoms, get DNA and the property of 'replication' emerges. What 'force' is at play?

 

[El_Machinae]

So add more atoms, get DNA and the property of 'replication' emerges. What 'force' is at play?

No additional forces. To be fair, we don't have any idea of what causes consciousness, or why it walks around inside our head.

Consciousness is not a property like replication. That is just a heuristic. It's a phenomenon. The closest analogy I can think of is 'fields' like gravity or magnetic fields.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

x-post with El_Machinae

So add more atoms, get DNA and the property of 'replication' emerges. What 'force' is at play?

No, no, that is a false analogy. In this case replication is just a special category of stuff happening as it always does. Just that in this instance it happens in a way that replication is the result. It is nothing genuinely knew. Just the rearrangement of the old.
That is like combining in a dance to jump and spin.
Consciousness on the other hand? That is like combining in a dance to jump and spin and then to suddenly for no reason glow in neon green whereas everyone's approbate reaction is "WTH is that?!"

Natural science is all about forces, no? We witness stuff. Like the apple falling off the tree. And then we don't go "oh okay apples fall from trees - rule of physics number 1345534quadtrillian - understood!", but wonder - why? Try to actually understand by establishing what is, to understand what happens. In this case, what was, was gravity. We do not know why there is gravity, I believe. But we do know why the apple falls off the tree.

Consciousness itself can not be a force. It is the result of a process. Forces are laws producing results. There is no gravity as such. But there are result which are explained with the force of gravity. So what force makes consciousness possible?

 

[brennan]

Consciousness on the other hand? That is like combining in a dance to jump and spin and then to suddenly for no reason glow in neon green whereas everyone's approbate reaction is "WTH is that?!"

Argument from personal incredulity. Again. How is 'consciousness' so special?

 

[warpus]

Because in the first case the sum is not larger than its parts. So there are no forces at play which are unaccounted for.

Of course water is larger than the sum of its parts. It has many properties that hydrogen or oxygen by themselves do not possess.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@brennan
The problem is rather your incredulity to accept the specialness of consciousness. You already got your answer. Tried to refute it as an answer - failed. Then I made the effort to further illustrate why it matters. To which you respond?
"Incredulity!"
Not very satisfying.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If the universe is alive and intelligent I wouldn't feel at ease taking my clothes off in front (behind, under, above, in between) it.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Of course water is larger than the sum of its parts. It has many properties that hydrogen or oxygen by themselves do not possess.

If I construct a castle with lego bricks, is the castle also larger than the sum of its parts? In a way perhaps. But this is of course not what is meant. What is meant is that something, not just a "property" like the property to be a castle, but something which stands for itself, emerges.
Like if I construct a lego castle and suddenly there are two castles. Or if the castle glows. Or if it starts to judge me a terrible architect.

 

[El_Machinae]

Here's the thing about water. Water doesn't have new emergent properties, it just has different properties compared to individual hydrogen or oxygen molecules. That's might be why there's the hiccup. Consciousness seems to be a new and additional emergent property. A network of neurons has all of properties individual neurons do (even if they're slightly different), but then there's a combination of neurons that also has consciousness.

 

[brennan]

Not very satisfying.

Your 'refutation' was fallacious. I agree, not very satisfying.

 

[warpus]

If I construct a castle with lego bricks, is the castle also larger than the sum of its parts? In a way perhaps. But this is of course not what is meant. What is meant is that something, not just a "property" like the property to be a castle, but something which stands for itself, emerges.
Like if I construct a lego castle and suddenly there are two castles. Or if the castle glows. Or if it starts to judge me a terrible architect.

Like I said though, water has a bunch of properties that neither oxygen or hydrogen alone possess. The properties arise when the two are joined together to form water.

It's a great example of "A whole will often be greater than a sum of its parts".

Here's the thing about water. Water doesn't have new emergent properties, it just has different properties compared to individual hydrogen or oxygen molecules.

Doesn't it though? Compare oxygen with water, and hydrogen with water, and you'll find that there are tons of differences in the ways in which they behave.

Different properties that the constituent properties do not have = emergent properties.

 

[Borachio]

If the universe is alive and intelligent I wouldn't feel at ease taking my clothes off in front (behind, under, above, in between) it.

Why not? I like the feeling the Universe is enjoying the awesomeness (actually the quirky, comic nature of) my body.

And yet, the Universe being what it is, it can certainly appreciate my body in all its nudiness even when I'm fully clothed.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I know it's irrational.

But that's how I roll.

 

[Kyriakos]

If the universe is alive and intelligent I wouldn't feel at ease taking my clothes off in front (behind, under, above, in between) it.

Maybe a god/universe/etc can see in *all* dimensions, which possibly would render humans as invisible to it as anything in a plane in *space* is to us, given we see in 3d and thus a single 2d form is invisible in our percieved space.

So feel happy one is that insignificant that he literally vanishes next to any potential watcher

(then again it does not have to imply we aren't watched by mostly equally dumb but a bit superior tech-wise beings).

 

[Borachio]

Well...

The Universe fashioned this body of mine. Let it enjoy it as it will, I say. There's no accounting for taste.

 

[El_Machinae]

Different properties that the constituent properties do not have = emergent properties.

No, they just change properties, but still within the same theme. Try to name a property that water has that hydrogen doesn't have an analogy of.

I'll not deny they behave differently, but there's nothing emergent.