Is there any point in keeping NATO around?

[red_elk]

An invasion involves the forcible seizure and continued occupation of one nation's sovereign territory by one or more foreign powers. This did not happen in 1999.

This is exactly what happened in 1999 in Yugoslavia.

 

[Farm Boy]

Commodore, you have to account for the point of view that the actual ground invasion was "just taking back what was theirs."

 

[kramerfan86]

Well I suppose it depends on from whose perspective the question is being asked. There is little point for the US, Canada, Britain, and France who are sort of natural allies who would likely defend each other without a formalized military alliance. For some of the other countries it does give them a level of theoretical defensive support they likely would not receive otherwise. I imagine the Baltic states for instance are quite pleased it exists.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Well I suppose it depends on from whose perspective the question is being asked. There is little point for the US, Canada, Britain, and France who are sort of natural allies who would likely defend each other without a formalized military alliance. For some of the other countries it does give them a level of theoretical defensive support they likely would not receive otherwise. I imagine the Baltic states for instance are quite pleased it exists.

I think the problem here is that NATO is a relict of cold war and it seems to function a lot in terms of an exclusive club, strongest military alliance, with a lot of force on its hands to be missused. Perhaps it should have been superseeded by some more inclusive millitary structure concerning the global security issues but then it wouldnt be exclusive any more. It would loose the hallmark of subtler superiority and it couldnt impose its will over others so easily.

 

[Commodore]

This is exactly what happened in 1999 in Yugoslavia.

Okay you can't just say something like this without providing evidence. At no point in 1999 did any NATO ground forces attempt to forcibly occupy any territory that was part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The only NATO ground forces deployed were deployed to Albania, which could not, in any way, be considered sovereign territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

So provide evidence of this apparent NATO invasion and occupation of Yugoslavia or withdraw your claim.

 

[red_elk]

The only NATO ground forces deployed were deployed to Albania, which could not, in any way, be considered sovereign territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Kosovo.

 

[Tahuti]

Kosovo.

To be fair, it wasn't exactly the whole of Yugoslavia, though it otherwise spot on.

The NATO actions against Yugoslavia allowed it to establish a UN mission to block any exercise of Serbian authority on its de-jure territory in Kosovo. The irony is while this is mandated under international law, it facilited the unilateral secession of Kosovo which is however illegal under (yes) international law.

 

[Commodore]

Kosovo.

NATO didn't invade Kosovo. Kosovo declared independence and the Serbian-led government decided to go all genocidal on them to bring them back into the fold. The international community decided to provide air support to the Kosovar ground forces fighting for independence. Calling that a NATO invasion would be like saying NATO invaded Libya because they provided air support to the rebels there.

Again, provide a verifiable source that states NATO ground forces invaded and occupied Yugoslav territory or withdraw your claim. Come on man, you live in Russia so you are much closer to those events than I am, so it's kind of sad that I am better educated and better informed on the matter than you.

 

[Tahuti]

NATO didn't invade Kosovo. Kosovo declared independence and the Serbian-led government decided to go all genocidal on them to bring them back into the fold. The international community decided to provide air support to the Kosovar ground forces fighting for independence. Calling that a NATO invasion would be like saying NATO invaded Libya because they provided air support to the rebels there.

Again, provide a verifiable source that states NATO ground forces invaded and occupied Yugoslav territory or withdraw your claim. Come on man, you live in Russia so you are much closer to those events than I am, so it's kind of sad that I am better educated and better informed on the matter than you.

The current UN control over Kosovo is enforced by NATO ground troops.

 

[Groff]

NATO didn't invade Kosovo. Kosovo declared independence and the Serbian-led government decided to go all genocidal on them to bring them back into the fold. The international community decided to provide air support to the Kosovar ground forces fighting for independence. Calling that a NATO invasion would be like saying NATO invaded Libya because they provided air support to the rebels there.

Again, provide a verifiable source that states NATO ground forces invaded and occupied Yugoslav territory or withdraw your claim. Come on man, you live in Russia so you are much closer to those events than I am, so it's kind of sad that I am better educated and better informed on the matter than you.

War crimes? Yes. By both sides? Yes again. Genocide? Absolutely not. Even the UN court rulled it wasn't genocide. To justify the invasion of Serbia there was a lot of propaganda, including famous statements that at least 100.000 Kosovars where killed. All of these have long been debunked.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/no-evidence-of-genocide-or-ethnic-cleansing-in-kosovo/625

 

[red_elk]

NATO didn't invade Kosovo.

It did. NATO bombed the country into submission, forced Miloshevich to accept NATO forces in Kosovo, which is a part of Yugoslavia, and then forcefully seceded part of the country.
The only thing different from "classic" invasions here is that Serbia resisted only against NATO air raids, but didn't fight against NATO ground forces in Kosovo.

 

[Commodore]

The current UN control over Kosovo is enforced by NATO ground troops.

It's not UN control. Kosovo is a sovereign nation and the UN ended its administration of Kosovo in 2008. While they are still under EU observation, the EU does not have any military personnel in Kosovo. Face it, Kosovo is a sovereign state with its own government and its own armed forces to defend its territory and interests.

From the wiki article on Kosovo:

The government of the Republic of Kosovo is defined under the 2008 Constitution of Kosovo as a multi-party parliamentary representative democratic republic. Legislative power is vested in both the Assembly of Kosovo and the ministers within their competencies. The President of Kosovo is the head of state and represents the "unity of the people". The Government of Kosovo exercises the executive power and is composed of the Prime Minister of Kosovo as the head of government, the deputy prime ministers, and the ministers of the various ministries. The Judiciary of Kosovo is composed of the Supreme Court and subordinate courts, a Constitutional Court, and independent prosecutorial institutions. There also exist multiple independent institutions defined by the Constitution and law, as well as local governments. The Law of Kosovo is based upon a civil law system

A 2,500-strong Kosovo Security Force (KSF) was trained by NATO instructors and became operational in September 2009.[133] The KSF did not replace the Kosovo Protection Corps (KPC) which was disbanded several months later. Agim Çeku is the current Minister of Security Forces of the Republic of Kosovo.[134] On 5 March 2014, Prime Minister Hashim Thaqi declared that the Kosovan government had decided to establish a Defence Ministry and by 2019, officially transform the Kosovo Security Forces into the Kosovan Armed Forces, an Army which meets all the standards of NATO states with aim in joining the alliance in the future

Yeah, really looks like they are just puppets of the UN.

 

[Oruc]

It's not UN control. Kosovo is a sovereign nation and the UN ended its administration of Kosovo in 2008. While they are still under EU observation, the EU does not have any military personnel in Kosovo. Face it, Kosovo is a sovereign state with its own government and its own armed forces to defend its territory and interests.

It was carved out by NATO though

 

[LamaGT]

It's not UN control. Kosovo is a sovereign nation and the UN ended its administration of Kosovo in 2008. While they are still under EU observation, the EU does not have any military personnel in Kosovo. Face it, Kosovo is a sovereign state with its own government and its own armed forces to defend its territory and interests.

From the wiki article on Kosovo:





Yeah, really looks like they are just puppets of the UN.

I've heard from a Kosovar that the EU pumps so much money into that country that there are no jobs besides local service ones.

I wonder why NATO took such a keen interest in the dismantling of Yugoslavia. Was it really such a huge threat?

 

[Groff]

I've heard from a Kosovar that the EU pumps so much money into that country that there are no jobs besides local service ones.

I wonder why NATO took such a keen interest in the dismantling of Yugoslavia. Was it really such a huge threat?

Kosovo aka Little Guantanamo:

The U.S. military base in Kosovo was constructed in 1999 without consulting with the government of Serbia and is the largest U.S. military base built outside of the U.S. since the Vietnam War. The site was apparently used for extraordinary renditions and has been referred to as a “little Guantanamo”.

Early in December 2005, in connection with the CIA torture affair, the debate about Bondsteeel was initiated by Alvaro Gil Robles, who is in charge of human rights issues with the Council of Europe. He reported about an inspection of the base in September 2002: «And there I indeed saw prisoners in a situation that absolutely resembled the one known from pictures of Guantanamo.» At the time of his visit, there were 15 prisoners. «Most of them were Kosova Albanians or Serbs, four or five were from North Africa. Some had beards and were reading the Koran.» These individuals, he said, were imprisoned «apart form standard judicial procedures

http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=113
http://www.globalresearch.ca/europe...he-u-s-wants-serbia-to-give-up-kosovo/5335592

Also the same people that were described as terrorist and criminals (by NATO/US) are now ruling Kosovo (with the support of US/NATO of course).

 

[Yeekim]

There is little point for the US, Canada, Britain, and France who are sort of natural allies who would likely defend each other without a formalized military alliance.

Well, having joint exercises, common weapons' standards and joint command structures likely does not hurt their ability to defend each other, should the need arise.

And yes, most of Eastern Europe is rather pleased NATO exists.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Face it, Kosovo is a sovereign state with its own government and its own armed forces to defend its territory and interests.

Face it. Kosovo is just a mafia type drug, human organ and human trafficking entity artificially carved out of territory of sovereign Serbian state. Kosovo is nothing short of farce of international law.

 

[Tahuti]

It's not UN control.

I never said that. Rather, the independence of Kosovo is maintained by UNMIK, which is continuing from this day.

 

[Commodore]

I never said that.

Yes you did:

The current UN control over Kosovo is enforced by NATO ground troops.

And no, UNMIK is no longer in effect. UNMIK ended in 2008 and it was transferred to EULEX. EULEX pulled all military personnel from Kosovo and only provides civilian advisors to assist in training of local police forces. You were clearly under the assumption that Kosovo was still fully under foreign occupation and administration, and now that you have been proven wrong, you are trying to backtrack on what you said.

 

[Agent327]

I wonder why NATO took such a keen interest in the dismantling of Yugoslavia. Was it really such a huge threat?

As far as I recall Yugoslavia pretty much dismantled itself following 1990.

But I'd concur that Kosovo is currently, shall we say, a highly dubious affair.