IS

One could, if one was so inclined, just live one's life according to certain principles and leave it to others whether they follow your example or not.

I don't see why believing something strongly means that one must necessarily force it on others.

In fact, quite the contrary: forcing someone else to follow what you believe seems to indicate a weakness in belief, not a strength. Because you may be seeking further justification, by (what's the technical word for it? I forget) validation through thingy.

Proselytizing shows that you need the validation that the greater numbers of the "faithful" brings. "This thing must be true. Just look how many of us believe it!"

Or is that just too counter-intuitive?
 
the ISIL actually uses Chlorine in combat , especially against the Iraqi Shias . Their specialist was killed by US bombardment , right ? And of course there is a vast and yet untapped literature that they get the ingredients from Turkey ; it's just Barack Hussein is so spineless .

and am sure people will see here , especially the guy who sent a PM to me , ı don't open such stuff unless moderators whack me on generally valid reasons and infract . If it's not worth talking about in the forum , there's no point in risking a specialized thing , which has really happened before .
 
I read a interesting piece in the Atlantic called "What ISIS Really Wants" and it spoke of devotion, territory, the apocalypse and the fight. This part I found interesting when talking to Musa Cerantonio, an Australian preacher and recruiter.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features...eally-wants/384980/?google_editors_picks=true

That is a VERY interesting read! :goodjob:

Every academic I asked about the Islamic State’s ideology sent me to Haykel. Of partial Lebanese descent, Haykel grew up in Lebanon and the United States, and when he talks through his Mephistophelian goatee, there is a hint of an unplaceable foreign accent.

According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”

All Muslims acknowledge that Muhammad’s earliest conquests were not tidy affairs, and that the laws of war passed down in the Koran and in the narrations of the Prophet’s rule were calibrated to fit a turbulent and violent time. In Haykel’s estimation, the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war. This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. “Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish [jihadists] are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,” Haykel said. Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”

Our failure to appreciate the essential differences between ISIS and al-Qaeda has led to dangerous decisions.

The Koran specifies crucifixion as one of the only punishments permitted for enemies of Islam. The tax on Christians finds clear endorsement in the Surah Al-Tawba, the Koran’s ninth chapter, which instructs Muslims to fight Christians and Jews “until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” The Prophet, whom all Muslims consider exemplary, imposed these rules and owned slaves.

Leaders of the Islamic State have taken emulation of Muhammad as strict duty, and have revived traditions that have been dormant for hundreds of years. “What’s striking about them is not just the literalism, but also the seriousness with which they read these texts,” Haykel said. “There is an assiduous, obsessive seriousness that Muslims don’t normally have.”

Before the rise of the Islamic State, no group in the past few centuries had attempted more-radical fidelity to the Prophetic model than the Wahhabis of 18th‑century Arabia. They conquered most of what is now Saudi Arabia, and their strict practices survive in a diluted version of Sharia there. Haykel sees an important distinction between the groups, though: “The Wahhabis were not wanton in their violence.” They were surrounded by Muslims, and they conquered lands that were already Islamic; this stayed their hand. “ISIS, by contrast, is really reliving the early period.” Early Muslims were surrounded by non-Muslims, and the Islamic State, because of its takfiri tendencies, considers itself to be in the same situation.

If al-Qaeda wanted to revive slavery, it never said so. And why would it? Silence on slavery probably reflected strategic thinking, with public sympathies in mind: when the Islamic State began enslaving people, even some of its supporters balked. Nonetheless, the caliphate has continued to embrace slavery and crucifixion without apology. “We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women,” Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. “If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”


I am stunned they are committed to bringing back slavery. :cry:


Fox News is calling the situation a Holy War now. :crazyeye:
http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2015/02/18/bill-oreilly-holy-war-begins/

This week there will be some meetings, meetings at the White House about the growing terror threat. We can expect a lot of speeches. "Talking Points" well understands that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have hurt America's ability to confront evil around the world. President Obama and many Americans do not have the heart for another global conflict after the intense loss of blood and treasure since the attack on 9/11.

But the utter brutality that faces this country and the world today has to be confronted. And somebody has to lead that effort. It certainly won't be the Chinese leader or Putin or Merkel or David Cameron in Great Britain. The first three don't have the will, Cameron doesn't have the power. There is only one leader with the cache to lead the fight -- that reluctant warrior, Barack Obama.

This is now a so-called holy war between radical jihadists and everybody else including peaceful Muslims. ISIS has murdered thousands of innocent people who follow the teachings of Allah. The terror savages will kill anyone at any time. What is especially frightening is the continuing nonsense we see from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIE HARF, STATE DEPARTMENT DEPUTY SPOKESPERSON: We're killing a lot of them and we're going to keep killing more of them. So are the Egyptians, so are the Jordanians, they are in this fight with us.

But we cannot win this war by killing them. We cannot kill our way out of this war. We need, in the longer term, medium and longer term to go after the root causes that lead people to join these groups, whether it's lack of opportunity for jobs --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'REILLY: So Miss Harf who spooks for the State Department, John Kerry, is telling the ISIS killers themselves and the world that organized military opposition cannot defeat the terror group.

That's just nonsense. If the world united against the jihad, it would be defeated. But, again, there is no effort to do that and so the atrocities continue. History will show that President Obama made an enormous mistake by failing to leave a residual force behind in Iraq. That could have quickly mobilized against the ISIS savages when they began infiltrating that country.

We can't beat them by killing them, we have to find them jobs! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I suppose now that Fox News is beating the war drums, there's going to be another war.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/02/11/obama-islmic-state-war-resolution/23242553/

WASHINGTON — President Obama took a confident stand against the Islamic State on Wednesday as he asked Congress for a resolution authorizing the continued campaign against the terrorist group.

"Make no mistake, this is a difficult mission. And it will remain difficult for some time. It's going to take time to dislodge these terrorists," Obama said. "But our coalition is on the offensive. ISIL is on the defensive, and ISIL is going to lose."

Obama addressed the nation from the Roosevelt Room of the White House, where he stood in front of a painting of Teddy Roosevelt during the Spanish-American War. "Know this: Our coalition is strong, our cause is just and our mission will succeed," he said.

George W. Bush just can't get enough war! :D


The population of the middle east is exploding in size.
The USA just closed its embassy in Yemen along with Turkey and Japan.
I can't imagine all the unrest in the region now that oil prices went down 50%.

Anyone have an opinion on the staying power of ISIL against attacks from all sides?
Are they the next Israel, a plucky little country that is going to stick around no matter what happens?
 
Are they the next Israel, a plucky little country that is going to stick around no matter what happens?
Possibly.

I don't think it's predictable what will happen.
 
No, because they do not have the backing from a major Bloc, Israel has Western Europe and the US, and IS does not have the backing of the Russian and Easter European Bloc or anyone else.

putting IS and Israel in the same boat is a bad analogy.
 
It, implicitly, has the backing of 1 billion Muslims. That's potentially a lot of support which might be mobilized if the West tries to just wipe IS out.

Now, don't jump on me. I'm not suggesting that 1 billion Muslims do support IS or that they will. But they could. Or a sizeable proportion of them could.
 
Israel had UN and therefore international legitimacy though, there is no political legitimacy for ISIS.
 
It, implicitly, has the backing of 1 billion Muslims. That's potentially a lot of support which might be mobilized if the West tries to just wipe IS out.

Now, don't jump on me. I'm not suggesting that 1 billion Muslims do support IS or that they will. But they could. Or a sizeable proportion of them could.

Well, IS are also violent towards other Muslims who are not fundamentalist enough and have alienated other Muslim powers such as Iran, Jordan, and Egypt to name a few. They have also been denounced by other large Muslim nations like Indonesia. So technically it does not have the backing of even a majority of Muslims, or even a sizable portion. If you look at their recruiting strategy, they are targeting disaffected youths and pressing children into military action.

The moment you find it necessary to put weapons in children's hands and press them into action, your cause has lost all legitimacy.
 
I thought Israel had no support at first.
And they only got USA support after miraculously surviving a few years?

You have a lot of Israeli, and Middle Eastern history reading to do in order to catch up to the conversation we are having.
 
I concur! That article was a revelation.
Now I wonder how many guys went there because they really want some sex-slaves.

A few evidently!
http://nypost.com/2015/02/18/female-isis-captives-endure-brutal-and-abnormal-sex/

Perverted ISIS militants are trying to score Viagra to fuel their lust for “brutal and abnormal” sex, according to a shocking report from activists in the terror group’s main Syrian stronghold.

The supposedly ultra-conservative Muslim fundamentalists have been forcing women in the city of Raqqa to marry them and engage in savage sex acts that result in hospital treatment, the report says.

The jihadists also buy kinky lingerie — described in the report as “strange underwear” — for their reluctant brides, according to the “Raqqa Is Being Slaughtered Silently” activist group.

“A large section of ISIS members suffer from sexual anomalies and brutal instinctive desire for sex,” the group wrote on its website.

Several families have reportedly fled the city — and one girl committed suicide — to avoid the lusty ISIS terrorists’ clutches.

If the article is fake, guess I fell for it. :sad:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bnormal-sex-acts-according-doctors-Syria.html


You have a lot of Israeli, and Middle Eastern history reading to do in order to catch up to the conversation we are having.
That is true yes.
I learned about Sunnis and Shias the same time George W. Bush did.
 
I thought Israel had no support at first.
And they only got USA support after miraculously surviving a few years?

They got diplomatic support from the US from the start. Most military support came at first from the Eastern bloc, then from the UK and France by the 1950s. The US became a major supporter in the 1960s.

Israel had UN and therefore international legitimacy though, there is no political legitimacy for ISIS.

The UN supported a two-state solution in 1947. It was rejected by the Palestinians, and Israel decided to declare independence anyhow when Britain decided to leave, with no encouragement or support from the UN whatsoever. They did had a plurality of support within the UN, though the UN largely consisted of Western powers at the time.

However, there is fairly good chance IS will survive for a long time as well. While the Sunni Gulf monarchies claim to oppose them, I seriously doubt their sincerity. Clerics from these countries have known to support them, often withdrawing their support later on, though the damage is done already then. ISIS is fairly wealthy and will be able to further augment its wealth anyhow. Say if Israel and Iran were to become close again in the next 30 years, some great power might step in to support IS to weaken these countries, as well.
 

If this turns out to be true then I am starting to think ISIS is just trying to see how much outrageously evil stuff they can get away with before the world finally does something about it.

The moment you find it necessary to put weapons in children's hands and press them into action, your cause has lost all legitimacy.

I don't know if that's entirely true. I remember reading about the Soviets employing children to both spy on and conduct small ambushes against Nazi forces. Would you say their cause lost all legitimacy when they did that?
 
I don't know if that's entirely true. I remember reading about the Soviets employing children to both spy on and conduct small ambushes against Nazi forces. Would you say their cause lost all legitimacy when they did that?

I absolutely think that the Soviets lost legitimacy just like the Nazis lost all legitimacy as well. They put weapons on children's hands as well to face the Allies during the War.

We are in danger of going off topic here on this tangent, so I won't go into details.
 
ISIS has proven a lot of staying power, in large part due to the unbelievable incompetence and lack of resolve shown by the Iraqi military. It has also proven that while a lot of the Muslim world openly hates it, it also has a lot of support and inspires young Muslim men from around the world to join, or at least to sympathize with it. Which is amazing for a group that is enthusiastically and openly bringing back slavery, but I'm getting less and less shocked when people either support or ignore purely evil actions and then attack anyone who tries to stop them. Let's face it: there is literally no deed so evil that it will convince most people to care and try to stop it. You can get away with ANYTHING because good people outright refuse to act.
 
ISIS is in many ways Assad's fault. He essentially let them grow in his Eastern territories because it fit his narrative of the rebels being terrorists. From there the spread into Iraq occurred, which as you said went far further than it should of due to the mind numbing incompetence of the Iraqi army.
 
There is an easy way to stop ISIS and that is to divide and conqueror. First get them divided amongst themselves and that will weaken them. IT isn't that hard to do, but we don't have the will to do that simple step.
 
Thanks for the easy solution.

ISIS is in many ways Assad's fault. He essentially let them grow in his Eastern territories because it fit his narrative of the rebels being terrorists. From there the spread into Iraq occurred, which as you said went far further than it should of due to the mind numbing incompetence of the Iraqi army.

Ironically, none of this would have happened if Saddam were still in place...
 
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