Israel vs. Hamas - Thread III

Gogf

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Thread I
Thread II

RULES:

- If you cannot be civil, do not post.
- No accusing other forum members of being part of an international conspiracy.

Special thanks to El Mac for tirelessly policing these threads!

...

I'm curious what will happen after this cease fire expires. I'd be surprised if Egypt of Turkey can mediate a longer-lasting deal within a week, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility.
 
Well, Hamas government officials would count as legitimate targets too (I think), since the Hamas government was calling for the violence.

I believe, though, that the Palestinians will feel that the civilian casualties were higher than the UN or Israel will report.

I don't agree that they are, neither do I agree that other civilians are legitimate targets either for voting for Hamas, or for that matter, standing next to them in a bus queue.

:lol:

Hamas is a totally reliable source on that figure...

Well maybe, but it's more reliable than "a huge number": which is just chauvanism talking.

The IDF claim 400 known operatives were killed. Even that number leaves a vast proportion of civilian deaths, which the majority of the civilised world, and America, regard as unacceptable.

But if you have a more reliable number from a more reliable source, lets hear it.

In any case, this whole "human shield" thing is an oversimplification that has provided a pretext for mass murder.
 
I was asking you a question. Your reply is not an answer.
Indeed it isn't
Given the number of suicide bombers and terrorist attacks that occurred with 'free passage' I dont see it as being an unreasonable precaution. Perhaps if Hamas recognized the legitimacy of the Israel state....
Do you see where this is going?

You can reason all the way back to the creation of the state Israel using this kind of 'logic'.

I was primarily referring to Hamas, not you, (I would have thought you picked up on that after my 'Lets not shoot rockets' comment) and yes, Hamas, and many in this thread have tried to paint Israel as being a bunch of monsters - war criminals that care nothing about civilian casualties.
I apologize, if that's the case, seems I read that the wrong way.
Everyone is judgemental in regards to this to one degree or another. Some more than others. This entire situation is just one big 'push me, shove you' and anyone can play the 'yeah, but...' card here.

The point still remains, if Hamas and Gaza et all, object about their treatment in Gaza, there are better ways to address it than indiscriminately shooting rockets into Israel....which is what started the current conflict.
People don't react too rational when their freedom is limited. People don't react too rational when their security is at stake.

Arguing about who's more wrong, who is responsible for the blame of dead civilians is the one thing that is keeping the status quo alive. It really pisses me off, which is really why I said before I shouldn't get into this kind of thread. (and explains my reaction earlier)
 
Well, Hamas government officials would count as legitimate targets too (I think), since the Hamas government was calling for the violence.

I believe, though, that the Palestinians will feel that the civilian casualties were higher than the UN or Israel will report.

I don't agree that they are, neither do I agree that other civilians are legitimate targets either for voting for Hamas, or for that matter, standing next to them in a bus queue.

:lol:

Hamas is a totally reliable source on that figure...

Well maybe, but it's more reliable than "a huge number": which is just chauvanism talking.

The IDF claim 400 known operatives were killed. Even that number leaves a vast proportion of civilian deaths, which the majority of the civilised world, and America, regard as unacceptable.

But if you have a more reliable number from a more reliable source, lets hear it.

In any case, this whole "human shield" thing is an oversimplification that has provided a pretext for mass murder.
 
I'm dissapointed in you Gogf, There was still 1 more post left in the previous thread, You posted 999, instead of 1000. =/

Anyway, I hope that Israel has a plan for Gaza afterwards, instead of just letting them sit there in their rubble for the next military group to come up.
 
Well, there has been a crash of the server or something so we couldn't do . .. .. .. . around here, but here are my two cents: The cease-fire with Hamas has already been breached them. Just one hour later they fired yet another round of rockets to Israeli territory. Don't these people never learn. No, I'm seriously asking: Don't these people ever will learn a single thing, even after such a struggle?
 
In any case, this whole "human shield" thing is an oversimplification that has provided a pretext for mass murder.

really? an oversimplification? it has been PROVEN and ADMITTED BY HAMAS that they use women, children, and the elderly as human shields. so when "one" (that good El Mac? :p) says that its simply a pretext for mass murder, one must consider as well that:

a) Israel cannot ignore the assaults on them
b) the assaulters surround themselves with civilians who "desire death from the zionist enemy"

what other choice is left? I urge you to invent an alternative and let us know so we can use it. thanks a lot in advance for this revolutionary new tactic.
 
what other choice is left? I urge you to invent an alternative and let us know so we can use it. thanks a lot in advance for this revolutionary new tactic.

Apparently you're one of the smarter persons here. Israel got no choice then to smash her enemies and to kill those who want to kill her! People get killed in war, especially when you're soldiers are using freaking human shields, goddamnit! No intention to offend other posters but don't you see the neccesity for the Israeli gouvernment to react to the attacks of those evildoers?
 
Depends on the size of the stones actually.

I sure as heck would still do something about it. It would be the police that would come stop my neighbor from doing this...and guess what? If he insisted on pelting the police, there is a good chance they would shoot my neighbor as well. If he insisted doing it hiding behind someone innocent, there is a good chance they would get hurt as well.

The person who has blood on their hands is the one that started hurling the stones. None of it would have happened otherwise.

That's right. So instead of waiting for the police (the UN), Israel took the law into their own hands.

Instead of waiting for the police, you simply picked up a gun and went over and shot up were you thought your neighbor was when he was throw stones. But instead of killing the stone thrower, you shot up his roommate and his kid. Guess what, you're a murderer. You can blame the other guy, but the jury won't see it that way. Instead of thinking of a rational solution, you used force first that cost the lives of innocent people. Even if one of those stones killed one of your roommates, that still doesn't give you the right to go over and shoot up a house, and kill innocent people. HAMAS isn't hiding behind civilians. They are just there because it's a densely populated area.
 
That's right. So instead of waiting for the police (the UN), Israel took the law into their own hands.

HAMAS isn't hiding behind civilians. They are just there because it's a densely populated area.

2 things wrong with these 2 statements.

1) Hamas has been firing these rockets for YEARS and UN has done NOTHING. There was only so long they could wait. note that the rocket count was at 8800+. how much longer should they have waited before defending their sovereign soil from the GOVERNMENT of another territory? its not like lebanon where Hezbollah was "merely" a terrorist group, Hamas is the GOVERNMENT. so its like saying they didn't wait for the police if they were a minority in certain hotspots at the turn of the century (Black/American South, Jew/Russia, etc.) - THEY WEREN'T COMING TO HELP ISRAEL.

2) Hamas admitted they do. please try again?
 
Not sufficient. From what I have seen and read it is being employed precisely and appropriately the way the munition is designed.....and thus legal according to the GC.

Citations? Sources? Please do not make any claims without any sound evidence to support them. Simply stating your claims based on "what I have seen and read" has no more credibility than a drunken mental patient saying he saw the Loch Ness.


Again, the munition itself [Israel's M483A1 Smoke Shell] is designed to minimize such [civilian] injury. But minimize =/= absolute prevention. Never has.

You are kidding me, right? Just a simple reminder, we are still 3 months away from April's Fool.

If you haven't read my previous post from the former thread clearly, here it is again:


From the original post by devilhunterred: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=305583&page=49

Sourced from http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45377 :

"The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas."

Sourced from http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2009...ban-areas.html :

"111 nations including most NATO allies signed a treaty banning their (M483A1 White Phosphorus Smoke Shells/Rounds [edited]) stockpiling and use. Neither the US nor Israel agreed to become signators. Although cluster bombs (which include Israel's M483A1 Smoke rounds) are not explicitly forbidden by the Geneva Law, the rules of war prohibit the use of inherently indiscriminate weapons or weapons that are incapable of being used in a manner that complies with the obligation to distinguish between civilians and combatants. Those who use them in civilian areas therefore open themselves to charges of war crimes."

IDF using WP in Gaza, in which almost 50% of its 1.5 million citizenry consisted of children with a immense population density of 4270 persons per sq km, undoubtedly affiliated with the delineation of : "(white phosphorus) should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas." as well as, "the use of inherently indiscriminate weapons or weapons that are incapable of being used in a manner that complies with the obligation to distinguish between civilians and combatants."



Conventional smoke shells that use smoke generating chemicals such as titanium tetrachloride, Chlorosulfuric acid, or Zinc chloride, although still mildly hazardous, do not inflict the spontaneous collateral damage of severe permanent third or even fourth degree burn caused by white phosphorus as the smoke generating chemical agent in Israel’s M483A1 shells that are now being used in Gaza.

Sourced from http://www.paxchristi.nl/files/Docum...ust%202006.pdf :

“(The following cluster munitions, including Israel’s M483A1 that are currently used in Gaza) are singled out as not only objectionable types of cluster munitions, but as those among the most widely used (by Israel and US), those that have caused the most civilian harm, and/or those that would pose the greatest threat to civilians….”


If minimizing civilian causalities in Gaza is truly one of its main concerns, as it was declared by the Israeli foreign ministry, then IDF had no excuse at all to utilize WP in such highly dense populated areas in Gaza. It had plenty of other much more impervious substitutions to choose from in creating smoke screen for urban combat.


= END =


And what was your grand, thoughtful and intellectual response to my series of arguments?


As an FYI for you, WP would be used even MORE if the IDF were to opt for increased infantry-only gound ops as smoke is essential to those operations.


Why would WP be used even more frequently if IDF wishes to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza, as declared by the Israeli foreign ministry to the concerned international community?

As I have already strongly stated, there are numerous other much more impervious substitutions Israel can use to create smoke screen in protection of its troops, including titanium tetrachloride, Chlorosulfuric acid, or Zinc chloride, as opposed to phosphorus that are used as the smoke generating chemical agent in Israel's M483A1 Smoke round that inflict unnecessary and collateral, severe and life permanent 4th degree burn damage to innocent civilians.

http://www.paxchristi.nl/files/Docum...ust%202006.pdf :

The M483A1 does not have better accuracy or efficiently than other smoke shells in service by the IDF. In contrary, the M483A1 is criticized by Human Rights Watch groups as being notorious with its inaccuracy, high failure rates, and its unnecessarily lethal collateral damage that puts innocent civilians in tremendous risks of burns that lasts for 36 hours and ultimate death.



Please MobBoss, do us all a favor, if your future response to an argument is as feeble and pitiful as your last attempt, save it for yourself.
 
I think this article sums up the situation quite elequently:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

Like davidminzer, I'm Jewish and descendant of holocaust survivors. Moreover, I've been a Zionist all of my life. I went to a Zionist school, I was active in Zionist youth groups. I've always been a fervent supporter of Israel as a refuge for Jews around the world who seek a place to exercise their traditions and embrace their identity in peace.

I sang the Israeli anthem in the train rails of Aushwitz-Birkenau and I pledged to fight every day of my life to make sure the savage crimes that had taken place there would never happen again. Every year I pledged: Never Again. Remember and Never forget.

Well, I haven't forgotten. And so to honor that pledge, to honor the memory of my family members who died in those death camps and because "there comes a time when silence is betrayal", today I finally and publicly end my support for the state of Israel.

I do this with great pain in my heart, but nonetheless with the overwhelming conviction that it is the only right thing to do. I was patient: I tolerated the destruction of the Oslo process by refusing to end or slow down the constant and criminal construction of settlements. I held my nose and stood my ground when Barak killed the final status negotiations at Taba 2001. I even remained loyal after Sharon's massacres in the West Bank, the brutal Annexation wall, the illegal "selective assassinations" and Olmert's war crimes in Lebanon.

I had to defend Israel and Israelis with my friends and others who demanded I be consistent with my progressive views and oppose a country that was responsible for horrible crimes against innocent human beings. "Israelis are scared, they are traumatized, you have to understand...", "Israel is responding to attacks on itself, tell me one other country that wouldn't respond when attacked...", I demanded understanding, I pleaded for a fair and comparative analysis.

ENOUGH. I'm done justifying crimes against humanity by a country that claims to be an illuminated western democracy. I'm done defending a country that is unwilling to grant self-determination to a neighboring people because it won't let go of a few settlements and divide a city. I'm done tolerating the slaughtering of innocent kids, the murderous and barbaric occupation of an impoverished people, the utter disregard for human life.

. .. .. .. . them.

If they think their daily peace of mind is worth the lives of hundreds of innocent people, . .. .. .. . them.

If they think the best way to go right now would be to vote for Natanyahu (who is so far winning in the polls), . .. .. .. . them.

If they won't bat an eye before keeping millions without electricity or water, before bombing civilian neighborhoods at exactly the time when kids are leaving schools, before breaking every standard of international law or moral decency, . .. .. .. . them.

It's time for every true progressive in this country and around the world to do the only thing that our consciences should allow us to do, the only thing that can keep us consistent with our supposed beliefs that human life is precious and that unnecessary violence is always criminal, barbarous and unacceptable. We must demand that Israel stop violence and immediately put an end to its colonialist military occupation of Palestine.
And until they do so, we must organize and do everything we can to make sure our money is not financing mass murder and oppression.

It is time for the progressive movement to demand immediate Divestment from Israel, just like we divested from other oppressive states like South Africa.

The only reason not to do so is willful hypocrisy.

And I don't know about you, but I'm done being a hypocrite.

Unnecessary murder of innocents is always wrong.

Selfish and unjustifiable occupation is always wrong.

Inaction in the face of massive suffering and injustice is always wrong.

It is thus our responsibility to make sure Obama and the rest of our leaders understand that this time we will be relentless, this time we mean business and this time we will honor our pledges.

NEVER AGAIN!

DIVEST NOW!

Peace

Salaam

Shalom
Israel and the US have already lost this war now that many Jews are starting to take the side of the oppressed in this particular situation - the Palestinians. Such is the fate of fascism in a truly free world regardless of whom the proponents might happen to be.
 
devilhunterred, you are smart, no doubt. Look, friend, IMO this thread should have get closed after post#12 from jeps. His and mine expressions have been said thousands times already, but virtually nobody ponders on them.
 
The UN is NOT the police. The UN is a bad joke.
It isn't just the UN. The world community in general has the same malfunction: they never complain when Hamas fires rockets at civilians (or when Hamas actually manages to hit civilians), but the minute Israel lifts a finger, governments across the world are screaming with rage.

The only way to prevent further violence is to get rid of Hamas; the stated agenda of Hamas is to prevent peace. They seem to be determined to provoke the biblical Final War between Islam and Israel--a war Israel will win.

Don't get any silly ideas about those previous five words, folks. The entire Arab world has had more than half a century to get rid of Israel, and they still can't do it.
 
Right. Israel and America are OBVIOUSLY fascist countries.
If it looks like a duck. If it walks like a duck. If it quacks like a duck...

Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascist governments typically seek to prepare a nation for armed conflict with other nations, to defend itself or to expand its state to allow for the growth of a nation.[5] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[6][7][8]

Fascist movements commonly oppose: class conflict, communism, conservatism, democracy, individualism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism, liberalism, and pacifism.[9][10][11] [12][13][14][15][16][17] In addition to explicit opposition to these ideologies and systems, fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

There are a lot more similiarities than there are differences, now aren't there?
 
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