Issues with defining Antisemitism and the 'problem' on The Left

[Timsup2nothin]

I mean the general vibe of "Corbyn is not and has never done anything which can be called antisemitic and he has not allowed antisemitism to thrive in anyway in his party". Despite, you know, the near unanimous opinion of British Jews. But why should we listen to them on the topic of anti-semitism?

Because of exactly what I pointed out early in the thread. @Ryika even provided a link to an example from the Jerusalem Post, in which a statement by Corbyn about Zionists is cited and turned into evidence of anti-Semitism. Several people, you included, have done the same to me. I consider Israel to be a fascist state, disguising itself as theocracy even though it consistently defies the tenets of the religion it is supposed to be protecting, that was foisted upon the local population as a means for Europeans to assuage their guilt with someone else paying the costs. It was poorly thought out at inception, and has developed into a monster that would be best done away with. That has absolutely nothing to do with my views on Judaism as a religion or Jews as people, but the conflation of opposition to Israel as a fascist state with antisemitism serves the Israeli state so well that it is constantly re-enforced. So, yes, I do tend to disregard "Jews themselves say this is antisemitism" in many cases.

 

[HoloDoc]

I do have data to show that after Corbyn took over (which happened in 2015), over 80% of British Jews think there is an antisemitism problem is his party, a proportion which is more than 4 times higher the equivalent figure for the Conservative Party. The party which was historically the natural home of anti-semites.

Are over 80% of British Jews morons? Are they all duped by the Zionist press?

And what to say of all Jewish members of Labour who have been coming out in record numbers to express their frustration? They're all Zionist scum? What about the former Corbyn supporter whose article I linked to?

I mean, at what point will fanboys admit the hypothesis that maybe, just maybe, Corbyn isn't kosher?

Traitorfish's already pointed out that the survey was not actually of 80% of British Jews, and that it is a particularly poor survey at any rate. Having looked into this a bit further, I'm inclined to go quite a bit further than him, and say that the survey politically self-justifatory, biased crap.

Source: I studied statistics. This survey was of an already biased group who display a tendency to think the local drinking fountains are anti-Semitic. And of course Corbyn isn't kosher; according to what I've read, he definitely has cloven hooves.

 

[brennan]

Okay, a few things then:



1) Being Jewish does not confer any unique ability to determine what is and is not antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of racism, which is a fairly simple concept. Part of the human brain is devoted to the task of determining the motivations of other humans, I don't think Jews have a special extra bit dedicated to identifying hatred of Jews - I no more believe that I need the opinion of a Jew to tell me what antisemitism is than that I need a Cat to tell me what is and is not a Dog.

2) The proportion of British Jews who 'think there is a problem' is irrelevant. Its an ad populum argument with zero persuasive force. This argument is used by people who have no substance with which to back up their claims - which is why it is so prominent in the Corbyn case.

3) I think it is (usually) a category error for critics of Israel to use the terms Zionists or Zionism in this debate - the correct target is almost always elements/policies of the Israeli government, actions of the IDF or elements of the pro-Israel lobby. Criticising 'Zionists' is a category error and people should be more careful with their language. There are two problems with this, the first being that it is a generalisation - not every Zionist wants Palestine turned into glass or (without apparent irony) thinks that there is a 'solution' to the Palestinian problem. The second issue is that to claim that your opponents are 'Zionists', is to appear to set out your stall as being opposed to the Zionist project - in other words to be against the existence of Israel. I suspect that this is not the case in the majority of cases, but it implies more than just valid criticism - thus the insistence from the pro-Israel side that this is an 'antisemitic dog-whistle'. Having said that, the use of broad categories in debate is common: 'democrat' vs 'Republican' for example, and it is poor form for the pro-Israel crowd to make hay from the error.

The point you and the rest of the Jeremy "antisemitism and other forms of racism" Corbyn fans don't get is that the definition of antisemitism is not something that 'should apply to any form of racism with little rewording'. It is contextual. Ravings about Israel aren't a priori antisemitic...

Since that was precisely the point I was making, perhaps you should reconsider what I do and do not 'get'.

And yet the Corbyn fanboys think it's all good to dismiss the opinion of the near totality or British Jews on this subject, because clearly they know better than Jews what antisemitism looks like.

Actually, i'd say this is probably true in every important respect, but better stated as a negative: Critics of Israel are clearly far better than British Jews at telling a highly dubious accusation from actual antisemitism, because paranoia and hysteria have given rise to some very skewed subjective opinions about what is going on in the UK within that particular demographic.

 

[Mouthwash]

1) Being Jewish does not confer any unique ability to determine what is and is not antisemitism.

Yes, it kind of does!

Antisemitism is a form of racism,

It isn't. Only some forms of antisemitism are racial.

which is a fairly simple concept.

Don't think I've ever seen a less true statement on CFC, which is saying a whole lot.

The proportion of British Jews who 'think there is a problem' is irrelevant. Its an ad populum argument with zero persuasive force.

Except, y'know, the whole thing is about the Jewish population.

3) I think it is (usually) a category error for critics of Israel to use the terms Zionists or Zionism in this debate - the correct target is almost always elements/policies of the Israeli government, actions of the IDF or elements of the pro-Israel lobby. Criticising 'Zionists' is a category error and people should be more careful with their language. There are two problems with this, the first being that it is a generalisation - not every Zionist wants Palestine turned into glass or (without apparent irony) thinks that there is a 'solution' to the Palestinian problem. The second issue is that to claim that your opponents are 'Zionists', is to appear to set out your stall as being opposed to the Zionist project - in other words to be against the existence of Israel. I suspect that this is not the case in the majority of cases, but it implies more than just valid criticism - thus the insistence from the pro-Israel side that this is an 'antisemitic dog-whistle'. Having said that, the use of broad categories in debate is common: 'democrat' vs 'Republican' for example, and it is poor form for the pro-Israel crowd to make hay from the error.

These are just a bunch of vaguely strung-together assertions, with no clear argument for why 'Zionist' can't be taken as a dog-whistle for Jew if it isn't specifically used in a context of Jewish nationalism. Plenty of Neo-Nazis use the term.

Since that was precisely the point I was making, perhaps you should reconsider what I do and do not 'get'.

"Something more streamlined could easily be suggested but it gets to the nub of the matter – which is actual negative opinions/feelings about Jews (as a people). Wikipedia suggests a variety of similar statements offered by various sources over the years2 and many of them could apply to any form of racism with little rewording." - your own damn words in the OP

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Actually, i'd say this is probably true in every important respect, but better stated as a negative: Critics of Israel are clearly far better than British Jews at telling a highly dubious accusation from actual antisemitism, because paranoia and hysteria have given rise to some very skewed subjective opinions about what is going on in the UK within that particular demographic.

I would add "and within that demographic everywhere else as well." No matter where you go, or how clearly you make it that what you are opposing is the government and state of Israel, the antisemitic accusations will fly passionate, thick, immediate, and irrational.

 

[luiz]

Because of exactly what I pointed out early in the thread. @Ryika even provided a link to an example from the Jerusalem Post, in which a statement by Corbyn about Zionists is cited and turned into evidence of anti-Semitism. Several people, you included, have done the same to me. I consider Israel to be a fascist state, disguising itself as theocracy even though it consistently defies the tenets of the religion it is supposed to be protecting, that was foisted upon the local population as a means for Europeans to assuage their guilt with someone else paying the costs. It was poorly thought out at inception, and has developed into a monster that would be best done away with. That has absolutely nothing to do with my views on Judaism as a religion or Jews as people, but the conflation of opposition to Israel as a fascist state with antisemitism serves the Israeli state so well that it is constantly re-enforced. So, yes, I do tend to disregard "Jews themselves say this is antisemitism" in many cases.

Yeah if you think an entire state with millions of citizens whose vast majority was born there should be "done away with", your morality is that of a Nazi.

 

[luiz]

Okay, a few things then:



1) Being Jewish does not confer any unique ability to determine what is and is not antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of racism, which is a fairly simple concept. Part of the human brain is devoted to the task of determining the motivations of other humans, I don't think Jews have a special extra bit dedicated to identifying hatred of Jews - I no more believe that I need the opinion of a Jew to tell me what antisemitism is than that I need a Cat to tell me what is and is not a Dog.

2) The proportion of British Jews who 'think there is a problem' is irrelevant. Its an ad populum argument with zero persuasive force. This argument is used by people who have no substance with which to back up their claims - which is why it is so prominent in the Corbyn case.

3) I think it is (usually) a category error for critics of Israel to use the terms Zionists or Zionism in this debate - the correct target is almost always elements/policies of the Israeli government, actions of the IDF or elements of the pro-Israel lobby. Criticising 'Zionists' is a category error and people should be more careful with their language. There are two problems with this, the first being that it is a generalisation - not every Zionist wants Palestine turned into glass or (without apparent irony) thinks that there is a 'solution' to the Palestinian problem. The second issue is that to claim that your opponents are 'Zionists', is to appear to set out your stall as being opposed to the Zionist project - in other words to be against the existence of Israel. I suspect that this is not the case in the majority of cases, but it implies more than just valid criticism - thus the insistence from the pro-Israel side that this is an 'antisemitic dog-whistle'. Having said that, the use of broad categories in debate is common: 'democrat' vs 'Republican' for example, and it is poor form for the pro-Israel crowd to make hay from the error.

Since that was precisely the point I was making, perhaps you should reconsider what I do and do not 'get'.

Actually, i'd say this is probably true in every important respect, but better stated as a negative: Critics of Israel are clearly far better than British Jews at telling a highly dubious accusation from actual antisemitism, because paranoia and hysteria have given rise to some very skewed subjective opinions about what is going on in the UK within that particular demographic.

Cool, so according to you, white people are better informed to tell black people what is and isn't racism against them. After all, due to them being the victims, paranoia and hysteria will skew their view and they won't be able to tell what is objectively racist and what is just a fair, objective comment.

I say you, Traitorfish and Tim should set up a course to teach Jews about what is anti-Semitism and blacks what is racism. I can't think of more qualified people.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah if you think an entire state with millions of citizens whose vast majority was born there should be "done away with", your morality is that of a Nazi.

Yeah, if you think the only way to do away with a state has something to do with doing away with the people your mentality is that of an idiot.

 

[luiz]

Yeah, if you think the only way to do away with a state has something to do with doing away with the people your mentality is that of an idiot.

I note that you want to do away with Israel but not say Iran, Turkey, Morocco, and many other states that occupy other peoples or oppress minorities to a far greater degree than Israel does.

In other words, you actually fit the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

No surprise there, considering you're a Nazi.

 

[REDY]

I remember how I was suprised by rallies "boycott Israel" in London and it was about 17 years ago. Because such strong anti-Israel propaganda in the democratic country it was only matter of time when some party would decide to use it.

 

[HoloDoc]

I note that you want to do away with Israel but not say Iran, Turkey, Morocco, and many other states that occupy other peoples or oppress minorities to a far greater degree than Israel does.

In other words, you actually fit the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

No surprise there, considering you're a Nazi.

Did you just, unironically and repeatedly, refer to anther poster as a Nazi for criticising Israel in a thread that has largely been a discussion about massive over reactions to criticism of Israel? After molying that the only way to get rid of a state somehow involved genocide?

Dafuq?

 

[luiz]

Did you just, unironically and repeatedly, refer to anther poster as a Nazi for criticising Israel in a thread that has largely been a discussion about massive over reactions to criticism of Israel? After molying that the only way to get rid of a state somehow involved genocide?

Dafuq?

I applied the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Wanting to "do away" with Israel (a rather Nazi-esque formulation to begin with) while not other, far more oppressive states, is indeed a clear evidence of antisemitism.

The far-left has become so contaminated by it they can't even see how grotesque Tim's position is.

 

[HoloDoc]

If the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism is so ridiculous it classifies someone who is against the state of Israel as a Nazi, then it is a ridiculous definition. One can criticise Israel, even to the point of wishing it did not exist, without calling for genocide or being racist. Not to mention you never even asked Tim for his opinions on those states; you just assumed them.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Unless someone is literally a subscriber to Nazi or neo-Nazi views, you do not call anyone a Nazi on this forum. The fact that I even need to type this is mind-boggling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't know. I suspect that they are but I'm not prepared to argue it. There are hugely different varieties of antisemitism, which complicates things.

That's fair.

So apparently tokenism doesn't apply to Jewish people.

I don't think it's simply tokenism when an appreciable minority dissent from the majority view. If a fifth of Jews disagree with the claim that Labour is too tolerant of anti-Semitism, and that out of an already self-selecting sample that skews religious and conservative, then the views of that fifth surely demand as much serious consideration as the other four-fifths.

I remember how I was suprised by rallies "boycott Israel" in London and it was about 17 years ago. Because such strong anti-Israel propaganda in the democratic country it was only matter of time when some party would decide to use it.

I don't think the national Labour Party has actually endorsed BDS or any other pro-Palestinian organisation in an official capacity. A few local parties have made various declarations of support, but not much that could be construed as standing policy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah if you think an entire state with millions of citizens whose vast majority was born there should be "done away with", your morality is that of a Nazi.

Here we see yet another example of the hysteria factor that has been mentioned.

"I am against the state of Israel, not the people or their faith. In fact, one of the biggest things I have against the state is that it has abandoned the principles of the faith of the people...well, really all principles whatsoever."

"So, you're a Nazi then."

Did you just, unironically and repeatedly, refer to anther poster as a Nazi for criticising Israel in a thread that has largely been a discussion about massive over reactions to criticism of Israel? After molying that the only way to get rid of a state somehow involved genocide?

Dafuq?

So, I see you have recognized what Luiz is all about.

 

[HoloDoc]

So, I see you have recognized what Luiz is all about.

That's what I would expect a Nazi like you to say....

 

[Mouthwash]

I don't think it's simply tokenism when an appreciable minority dissent from the majority view. If a fifth of Jews disagree with the claim that Labour is too tolerant of anti-Semitism, and that out of an already self-selecting sample that skews religious and conservative, then the views of that fifth surely demand as much serious consideration as the other four-fifths.

Mr Donald Trump received 30 percent of the Latino vote and nearly 10% of the black vote. And you're not even bringing up the question of what sorts of Jews usually defend Labor (I suspect they're the most highly assimilated fifth of the Jewish population, just as I suspect the black Trump voters tend to have more income and social mobility than others).

The far-left has become so contaminated by it they can't even see how grotesque Tim's position is.

No, Tim only realizes that if Jews demand autonomy for themselves, it's because they really want to enforce Halakha! And their maintaining an army for themselves - that's a clear indicator they've sunk to Hitler's depth.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Mr Donald Trump received 30 percent of the Latino vote and nearly 10% of the black vote. And you're not even bringing up the question of what sorts of Jews usually defend Labor (I suspect they're the most highly assimilated fifth of the Jewish population, just as I suspect the black Trump voters tend to have more income and social mobility than others).

Do you think that makes their opinions less valid?

 

[Mouthwash]

Do you think that makes their opinions less valid?

Yes?