John McCain

[metalhead]

Yes, but you're engaging in the logical fallacy everyone always seems to fall into, which is assuming that because X political figure's partisans can't be swayed, there is nothing to be gained from appealing to people as to why X is bad/dangerous/whatever.

Of course the hardcore Palinistas would not be swayed, but that's not the purpose. The purpose is to engage everyone else in keeping them a minority within the party, instead of letting them take over. The GOP briefly flirted with this approach when Trump made his remarks about Judge Curiel in June of 2016, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that a few outspoken powerful Republicans could have prevented Trumpism from taking over, even then.

Before that, had McCain and others been actively opposing the nativist, ignorant wing of the party instead of either sitting back and letting it happen or, in most cases, courting it for electoral advantage, we wouldn't be in this mess. But the GOP decided that this was the bed they were going to make. And now we're all stuck lying in it.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes, but you're engaging in the logical fallacy everyone always seems to fall into, which is assuming that because X political figure's partisans can't be swayed, there is nothing to be gained from appealing to people as to why X is bad/dangerous/whatever.

Of course the hardcore Palinistas would not be swayed, but that's not the purpose. The purpose is to engage everyone else in keeping them a minority within the party, instead of letting them take over. The GOP briefly flirted with this approach when Trump made his remarks about Judge Curiel in June of 2016, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that a few outspoken powerful Republicans could have prevented Trumpism from taking over, even then.

Before that, had McCain and others been actively opposing the nativist, ignorant wing of the party instead of either sitting back and letting it happen or, in most cases, courting it for electoral advantage, we wouldn't be in this mess. But the GOP decided that this was the bed they were going to make. And now we're all stuck lying in it.

I understand, but I think that what you're doing here is ignoring a point/revelation, that you yourself have repeatedly made on this issue, and essentially trying to create a distinction that doesn't really exist. The Trumpists are the Republicans. They are the majority of the GOP not some minority faction. Without them, the Republican candidates can't win races. The Republican "establishment" couldn't marginalize them, because any attempt to do so would just result in those candidates marginalizing themselves.

That's what the Glen Beck 9/12'er Tea Party revolution was about. By 2008, the GOP had already become the TeaOP it just didn't have a name yet. The takeover had already happened from the perspective of the constituency. All the Republican establishment could do at that point was get on board or get run over by it. Seeing their darling Palin go down in flames and to Obama no less, was the spark that lit them aflame, and establishment like McCain was one of the scapegoats being blamed.

So they could have condemned what was essentially the majority of their constituents... but that would have been nothing short of falling on the sword "for the good of the country"... which is a tall order for anyone... especially a politician.

 

[metalhead]

They can get new constituents. They aren't stuck with the nativist golem they created, and they never were. Well OK, now they are stuck with it, but they weren't stuck with anything 10 years ago, and probably not even 2 years ago.

Trumpists/Palinistas are the GOP now only because the GOP allowed them to take over. They didn't have to. And ironically, even though McCain both elevated them by selecting Sarah Palin and didn't do much to try to combat the monster he helped create, they despised him.

And 2008 was the time to lurch back to the middle, and away from the nativists and hardliners. The brand was garbage. The right wing echo chamber was at its nadir, thanks to the Iraq War and disgrace of the Bush presidency. The establishment very much had a choice as to how to rebuild after the elections of 2006 and 2008. This is what they chose.

 

[Traitorfish]

So they could have condemned what was essentially the majority of their constituents... but that would have been nothing short of falling on the sword "for the good of the country"... which is a tall order for anyone... especially a politician.

And yet it's what the Democrats have been asked to do in every federal election since Al Smith. Better madness than a double-standard.

 

[Sommerswerd]

They can get new constituents. They aren't stuck with the nativist golem they created, and they never were. Well OK, now they are stuck with it, but they weren't stuck with anything 10 years ago, and probably not even 2 years ago. Trumpists/Palinistas are the GOP now only because the GOP allowed them to take over. They didn't have to. And ironically, even though McCain both elevated them by selecting Sarah Palin and didn't do much to try to combat the monster he helped create, they despised him.

And he despised them... That symbiotic hatred was part of the deal with McCain. He needed them to win, and he knew it... and they needed him to win, and they knew it. The deal he offered them was... "Look I don't like you and you don't like me... but I'll hold my nose and stomach you... as long as you don't go too too far... and in return, you hold your nose and vote for me, as long as I don't go too far." The "too far" part was one of the sources of mutual resentment. McCain couldn't get too maverick'y and his constituents couldn't call Obama "an Arab" on national television, no matter how badly they wanted in their heart-of-hearts to. With Trump, they don't have to hold their tongues... there is NO "too far" whatsoever... and that's one of the things they love about him.

And 2008 was the time to lurch back to the middle, and away from the nativists and hardliners. The brand was garbage. The right wing echo chamber was at its nadir, thanks to the Iraq War and disgrace of the Bush presidency. The establishment very much had a choice as to how to rebuild after the elections of 2006 and 2008. This is what they chose.

And they won... if it ain't broke... as the saying goes...

And yet it's what the Democrats have been asked to do in every federal election since Al Smith. Better madness than a double-standard.

And that is why the Democrats lose... because they are continually falling on the sword for the good of the country while the Republicans refuse to do so.

 

[onejayhawk]

And that is why the Democrats lose... because they are continually falling on the sword for the good of the country while the Republicans refuse to do so.

If you compost that for six months, it will make a great garden amendment. Don't worry. There is not a shred of truth in it; its pure Barnyard Stuff.

J

 

[Sommerswerd]

The ACA is a perfect example of Democrats falling on their swords to do what they thought was best for the country... they did what they thought was right and needed to be done, and they lost bigly for it.

Why haven't the Republicans repealed and replaced yet? Is it because they don't really believe that its the right thing to do for the country? Or is it because they aren't willing to take the political losses to do what they think is right?

Why haven't they passed immigration reform bill to build "The Wall" or whatever form of comprehensive border security they've been whining for years is needed? Again, is it because they don't really believe that its the right thing to do for the country? Or is it because they aren't willing to fall on the sword for it?

Or... let me guess... its Hillary/Obama/the Democrat's fault?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Or... let me guess... its Hillary/Obama/the Democrat's fault?

Exactly! They corrupted the American people with diabolical communist ideas such as affordable health care, accountability and respect for human rights!

 

[Traitorfish]

And that is why the Democrats lose... because they are continually falling on the sword for the good of the country while the Republicans refuse to do so.

The Democratic Party have been chasing the Republicans right-ward since Reagan. The American electorate didn't just become suddenly reactionary in 1983, this was an absolutely mutual process. Just because the Democrats have failed to capitalise on it, just because they are bad at politics, does not somehow make them martyrs.

 

[Sommerswerd]

If your point is that the Democrats are oftentimes stupid, feckless and weak, I agree with you.

In other news... Megan McCain went in hard on Trump in her eulogy. It spoke volumes seeing Obama and Michelle, next to W and Laura, next to Bill and Hillary, all front and center at the funeral while the dis-invited Trump was absent, sulking and trying to figure out new petty and small ways to tantrum over McCain getting the last laugh on him.