John McCain

[Farm Boy]

Palin was definitely a crowd pleaser. She hit all the proto-Trumpy talking points that got cheers. Which he did not buy into even as she overshadowed him with them. I think there's a bit of him next to Tina Fey joking about it. He stopped campaigning to make the iron out the bailout passing(no great treat that it was, but hey, I think we all credit somebody else with making that work), and asked that Senator Obama do as well to work with him. It wasn't agreed to, but hey, whatevs. Why stop when you're winning?

Sleaberman, as you put it, would have been better, as McCain put it.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Palin was definitely a crowd pleaser. She hit all the proto-Trumpy talking points that got cheers. Which he did not buy into even as she overshadowed him with them. I think there's a bit of him next to Tina Fey joking about it. He stopped campaigning to make the iron out the bailout passing(no great treat that it was, but hey, I think we all credit somebody else with making that work), and asked that Senator Obama do as well to work with him. It wasn't agreed to, but hey, whatevs. Why stop when you're winning?

Sleaberman, as you put it, would have been better, as McCain put it.

It's Sleaze-berman get it right ... and yes McCain has expressed regret that he bowed to the internal pressure instead of going with his friend... which as an aside, I respect on two counts, my loathing of his friend notwithstanding. First I respect his ability to at least sometimes acknowledge his past mistakes. That is difficult for all of us, let alone a rich, famous, powerful, public figure. Saying "I was wrong" is nigh impossible for some. Second, I respect his affection/loyalty for his friend. I saw it as genuine desire to try and partner with him to do some good, set an example, etc., despite them being on different "sides" politically.

I just wish his friend was a different person... but that's a separate issue. I think they would have lost bigly anyway. That election was the Democrat's to lose.

As another aside, McCain has also been careful not to trash Palin or lament his picking her. He always speaks fondly and respectfully of her and her abilities, which I think shows class that is often wanting in his colleagues.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Interesting article in the NYT about McCain being Russia's no. 1 Russophobe and how they haven't really got anyone to blame now when their actions get them a bad rep
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...ll-miss-him-dearly/ar-BBMABYE?ocid=spartandhp

 

[metalhead]

As another aside, McCain has also been careful not to trash Palin or lament his picking her. He always speaks fondly and respectfully of her and her abilities, which I think shows class that is often wanting in his colleagues.

That would seem rather at odds with his reputation for "Straight Talk."

It's also pretty self-serving to demur on the question of whether that decision of his is what has, more than anything else, enabled the rise of Trumpism as the new conservatism.

 

[red_elk]

Interesting article in the NYT about McCain being Russia's no. 1 Russophobe and how they haven't really got anyone to blame now when their actions get them a bad rep
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...ll-miss-him-dearly/ar-BBMABYE?ocid=spartandhp

America didn't run out of neocons or other warmongers yet, Russia has lots of choices.
The journalist's impression about Russian propaganda narrative is actually almost opposite to the real one.

 

[Sommerswerd]

That would seem rather at odds with his reputation for "Straight Talk."

It's also pretty self-serving to demur on the question of whether that decision of his is what has, more than anything else, enabled the rise of Trumpism as the new conservatism.

Well we'd have to decide what "Straight Talk" really means, whether its genuine on some level, or a campaign gimmick, or an excuse to be a grumpy old codger, or just another way of saying "tell people what they want to hear" or "say things that people think but are afraid to say" so that they'll praise you for "telling it like it is".

But putting that aside, and assuming that "Straight Talk" means being "honest" or genuine on some level... I don't think its so bad to find some balance between manners, civility, class, etc., and honesty. Being a "straight-talker" doesn't require you to tell your wife that she looks fat in that dress or that her chemo-induced hair loss makes her look sickly, does it?

On your second point... I was talking more about how he addresses questions about whether he thinks Palin sucks, or whether she was a terrible VP pick. But putting that aside, I'd like to think that some of his very visible, party-bucking, opposition to Trump is him trying to pay some actual penance for his sins in that regard, rather than just petty revenge-seeking for the "I like guys who weren't captured" comment. Assuming that I'm correct, we can contrast his actions in defiance of Trump with some missing lip-service about the role he played in the rise of Trumpism.

 

[rah]

But putting that aside, and assuming that "Straight Talk" means being "honest" or genuine on some level... I don't think its so bad to find some balance between manners, civility, class, etc., and honesty. Being a "straight-talker" doesn't require you to tell your wife that she looks fat in that dress or that her chemo-induced hair loss makes her look sickly, does it?

Yeah, I think this sums it up best.

 

[metalhead]

If it would help preserve democracy, then yes, "Straight Talk" should include telling your wife she looks fat in that dress. Otherwise, what use is straight talk?

 

[rah]

I've been married for over 30 years, how about you? Just asking.

 

[Synobun]

Your mistake was thinking your marriage was a democracy.

 

[rah]

I have never been under that delusion.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think McCain going around saying "Sarah Palin is garbage, what a twit, I never should have picked her, worst decision ever", helps preserve democracy, anymore than characterizing people as "clinging to their guns and religion and antipathy, etc," did, regardless of the truth (or truthiness) of either of those statements. Trump is serving up hot steaming piles of "Straight Talk" chock-full of chunky truthy truthiness everyday and his voters love him for it. But I wouldn't say it helps democracy.

As cathartic as "straight talk" can be... you catch more flies with honey and horse manure than you do with vinegar... spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down... and so on. Honesty has to have purpose, and be balanced with the palatable or it just devolves into people trolling each other on the internet with "straight talk".

 

[rah]

Yes, being nice doesn't really cost anything and is usually responded to in kind. Unfortunately in the internet age, we've seen the rise of those that think being a troll doesn't really cost anything so the feel free to try to hurt people. Civil discourse is the loser.

 

[metalhead]

I don't think McCain going around saying "Sarah Palin is garbage, what a twit, I never should have picked her, worst decision ever", helps preserve democracy, anymore than characterizing people as "clinging to their guns and religion and antipathy, etc," did, regardless of the truth (or truthiness) of either of those statements. Trump is serving up hot steaming piles of "Straight Talk" chock-full of chunky truthy truthiness everyday and his voters love him for it. But I wouldn't say it helps democracy.

As cathartic as "straight talk" can be... you catch more flies with honey and horse manure than you do with vinegar... spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down... and so on. Honesty has to have purpose, and be balanced with the palatable or it just devolves into people trolling each other on the internet with "straight talk".

Well, the obvious counter-point here is that McCain delicately slow-rolling his horror at having enabled Sarah Palin is that it did not do anything to dissuade Palin 2.0 from being even more Palinesque than the original, and then bringing that lovely political disposition all the way to the presidency.

You don't have to personally denigrate Sarah Palin to clearly communicate how her status as a national figure is harmful to both our democracy and the Republican party, and how it was a mistake to elevate her.

Being honest and clear about that absolutely would have served a purpose. Nobody of stature in the Republican party was willing to stand up to that brand of politics. A few have halfheartedly done so, but nobody has really spoken out forcefully. McCain, as the one who helped most bring it about, was in a unique position to sound a warning and maybe be taken seriously by enough people to make a difference.

I mean sure, maybe it also would not have mattered. But there definitely would have been a useful purpose behind it.

 

[rah]

I was a republican at the time, and I didn't need McCain to tell me anything about Palin. Anyone with half a brain had it figured out really quickly. I'll admit that I too thought it was a good pick for the first hour or so, but listening to her made it pretty obvious. To those with less than half a brain, being told what she really was wouldn't have made a difference. Just like trying to explain things to dedicated trumpsters.

 

[Traitorfish]

But putting that aside, and assuming that "Straight Talk" means being "honest" or genuine on some level... I don't think its so bad to find some balance between manners, civility, class, etc., and honesty. Being a "straight-talker" doesn't require you to tell your wife that she looks fat in that dress or that her chemo-induced hair loss makes her look sickly, does it?

"Straight talk" very generally means refusing to sugar-coat your sentiments to protect the listener's sensibilities. If you begin adding qualifications to that, then it's no longer "straight talk", it's just, well, talk.

And nobody disputes that McCain was long on talk.

 

[Sommerswerd]

"Straight talk" very generally means refusing to sugar-coat your sentiments to protect the listener's sensibilities. If you begin adding qualifications to that, then it's no longer "straight talk", it's just, well, talk.

Do you think Trump does "straight talk"? Or more specifically, do you think Trump's supporters think he's doing "straight talk"?

 

[Berzerker]

straight talk is relative...for a politician, McCain was straighter than most. I'd put Biden in that camp too.

 

[Traitorfish]

Do you think Trump does "straight talk"? Or more specifically, do you think Trump's supporters think he's doing "straight talk"?

His supporters seem to, yes. A large part of his appeal is the image of the "straight-shootin' maverick" pioneered by the likes of McCain.

 

[Sommerswerd]

You don't have to personally denigrate Sarah Palin to clearly communicate how her status as a national figure is harmful to both our democracy and the Republican party, and how it was a mistake to elevate her.

Sounds like denigration to me. I tend to agree with rah, that the people who knew didn't need to be told, and the people who didn't think so were not going to be convinced by any "straight talk"... on the contrary, they would have dug in and doubled down.

In fact, I think that is exactly what happened. Palin got "denigrated" by the media... or if you prefer, the media, most notably beginning with Katie Couric and SNL, clearly communicated how her status as a national figure was harmful to both our democracy and the Republican party, and that it was a mistake to elevate her... the result is that the Trump voters were aggrieved, energized... and here we are.