Jorissimo's opening training shadow thread

[jorissimo]

T50:

Spoiler :

I have:
- Fishing, Agri, BW, TW, Hunting, Pottery
- 3 cities
- 6 pop
- 4 warriors, 1 axe, 3 workers
- 1 corn farm, 1 grassland mine, 1 copper mine, 1 silver mine, 1 deer camp, 5 roads

My original idea was to go stone city next, whipping a workboat in the first silver city, whose arrival at the northern fish would have coincided with the settlement of that city. However, I saw @soundjata 's point about the second silver city, which would start making a profit much faster. So I had the 2 workers road copper, then road silver, then camp, then chop for Hadru, and the forests are now 1 turn from being chopped. Hadrumentum was settled on this turn.

Double walk scouting ended in a small disaster when the easternmost warrior went onto the grassland hill in the eastern interior and found itself surrounded by a barb archer and 2 warriors. There was no way I could beat that with 2 warriors, so I retreated my western warrior to the fores where he is located now.

After the capital finished worker 2, it switched to an axe (copper got roaded the same turn) and grew to size 4. The axe then started exploring the eastern interior, killing a few barbs on the way (while defending). With this land, this doesn't seem to be shaping up to be a very easy iso game, but since I'm only playing the opening, that isn't really my problem

After the axe, the capital built a settler for Hadru in about 6 turns. Then it went worker in 4. After that, it will build a settler for stone fish.

City 2 grew to size 2, then switched to a worker, and whipped it when possible (I switched to slavery way too late, but the silver hadn't been improved yet so it wasn't a big deal). I realized I whipped away the silver mine, but I had already gotten Pottery by that time and I knew I would be able to work both silver mines shortly. This worker started on farming the fp.

Tech-wise, I switched to Hunting, then finished Pottery and am now working on Masonry since it felt early for Writing. But that will be the next tech up. And then I'll probably grab Myst for the happiness after which I'll kill the slider while building some libraries. Next stop after that: Monarchy. For city 5, my preference goes out to 1N of the spot marked c (western fish). That way I can grab all of the floodplains without farming any of them and will be able to work the coast. It will be a pain to set up though. will probably chop that nearby ph forest to help it get the monument. Alternatively, I could go for the dry rice spot which would be a decent helper city for the capital. Maybe there could be a justification for a 6th city between the far SE silver and crab.

 

[sampsa]

I didn't love the first silver spot, just too weak and a workerT drain IMO, but the second silver spot is a better city of course and makes sense. You have improved a silver and not working it though. You do nothing with the tile and nothing with the +1 , right? There must be some other way.

As it is, I'd settle 4th on the stone. Yes delays fish, but now is the time for that stone failgold if you want it.

However, I don't think your strategy is doing justice for CHA/FIN. They are best traits for strawberry fields (big cottage spots) and you have a nice capital for that.

I don't know if the point of the thread is to replay, but perhaps this map is a goldmine for learning purposes. Lots of options, no clearly best 2nd city etc. A big learning experience might be to play this map with many different leaders.

 

[jorissimo]

You have improved a silver and not working it though. You do nothing with the tile and nothing with the +1 , right? There must be some other way.

I did work it for a while, netting me Pottery. Perhaps whipping the worker was a mistake. However, the way I see this is as locked-in commerce potential, ready to be harnessed as soon as the early expansion phase ends. I don't really need any (expensive) techs right now anyway.

However, I don't think your strategy is doing justice for CHA/FIN. They are best traits for strawberry fields (big cottage spots) and you have a nice capital for that.

Sure, my plan is to go all out cottages after getting those 4, maybe 5 cities up.

I don't know if the point of the thread is to replay, but perhaps this map is a goldmine for learning purposes. Lots of options, no clearly best 2nd city etc. A big learning experience might be to play this map with many different leaders.

Yeah, I was lucky to roll such a pedagogical map on the first try. From the discussion here it appears to be a map without a single clear winning strategy. Btw, how do you play a map with another leader? I'm guessing as a wb scenario, but how do you choose the same starting spot?

 

[sampsa]

Yeah, I was lucky to roll such a pedagogical map on the first try. From the discussion here it appears to be a map without a single clear winning strategy. Btw, how do you play a map with another leader? I'm guessing as a wb scenario, but how do you choose the same starting spot?

You need to worldbuilder save and edit it with a text editor. From what I recall it's relatively straightforward.

 

[Thrasybulos]

A wb scenario is just a text file.
You just have 2 (3) edits to make.

BeginTeam
TeamID=0
Tech=TECH_HUNTING
Tech=TECH_MINING
ContactWithTeam=0
RevealMap=0
EndTeam

=> Replace the techs with the proper techs for you.

BeginPlayer
Team=0
LeaderType=LEADER_HATSHEPSUT
LeaderName=TXT_KEY_LEADER_HATSHEPSUT
CivDesc=TXT_KEY_CIV_EGYPT_DESC
CivShortDesc=TXT_KEY_CIV_EGYPT_SHORT_DESC
CivAdjective=TXT_KEY_CIV_EGYPT_ADJECTIVE
FlagDecal=Art/Interface/TeamColor/FlagDECAL_EyeOfRa.dds
WhiteFlag=0
CivType=CIVILIZATION_EGYPT
Color=PLAYERCOLOR_YELLOW
ArtStyle=ARTSTYLE_MIDDLE_EAST
(...)
EndPlayer

=> Replace the LeaderType (and CivType ?) with the one you want to play.
You can edit the other fields with the correct values for that leader, but it's just as easy to just remove all those extra lines: the game with use the default values for that leader.

The last edit you might need concerns your starting unit: scout or warrior, and depending on whether you're AGG or not, add/remove the combat I promotion.
Look for "UnitOwner=0".

 

[sampsa]

Tundra silver vs cottage

FIN tundra silver is -226.
FIN grass river cottage is 3, gaining +1 after worked 10T and so on.

The biggest issue with tiles like gold/silver is the -drain. Now it's not an issue if you have lots of to spare, which is why in general it's thought that capital shinies are more valuable. But if you need to first set up that food (and here it's junk , it's like feeding McDonalds to those miners!) the value of the shiny tile already goes down. Thus at least for me - if there are tiles as great as green FIN cottages available - most of the value from the shiny comes from the extra happiness.

Second issue here is the workerT drain. While I joked that I want to hear drew's opinion and forget it, his suggested spot seems like the most logical choice. That city will be producing way more than silver in 25T.

Are you rushing to some tech with the silver? No. Do you need the happiness urgently? No. I think silver was just a very bad play.

With what leader might silver make sense? Maybe some IMP guy with poor starting techs. Justin.

 

[soundjata]

@jorissimo whipping the worker in city 2 only mistake I can see (i hope that dude is making a farm)
Moar tundra silver

Now isolation is confirmed you want to beeline Optics and stay low on cities. (maybe 6)
Sailing before Writing I think. (lighthouses before libraries)

 

[a pen-dragon]

Since this is obviously iso, maybe play until optics, as that is when I consider the iso opening to have ended?

Thinking about the future, do you need monarchy that early? CHA+Monument+silver allows for size 7 (capital 8) cities being happy, +1 with the odd forge. Sure, a few cities could work more cottages, but getting monarchy is three techs (meditation, priesthod, monarchy) which is around 2/3 of optics. Both silver cities are low food so will not profit from this. Stone/fish only has 3 (or 5 if on stone) cottageable tiles, so will grow on coast, meaning only Carthage and maybe an additional city west of it would really profit from it. Also you have hunting, bw and copper, meaning warriors only if you pillage the mine...

Btw, I would settle the city after stone fish 1S of the PH to share the corn, as without monarchy Carthage will not need it anyway.

IMHO the western fish should only be settled post optics, as it has few good tiles, and all in the second ring (except if you find a second seafood). I would definitely settle dry rice before western fish due to better land.

Also a city grabbing the eastern end of the river and the other rice would be better than the silver/crabs one.

Now, about the current situation:

you seem to want to double chop the WB in Hadrumentum. IMHO this is a mistake, due to wasting workerT. One chop + working the PH silver would suffice (and not even loose a turn). The second chop will undoubtedly help with the granary, but does that city need one yet? I think slowbuilding it while growing onto the silvers gets it sufficiently fast, freeing one of these workers to do more important things, like chopping Carthage for REX, or doing what your whipped worker is doing, or even cottaging. One worker in hadru could chop once into the WB, road, mine the silver and chop the second forest into the granary (maybe in a different order).

Also the southern warrior is out of place. 1S1E could fogbust much more terrain while not leaving a window for barbs to spawn behind your lines. The axe could have helped it move. Granted, that spot is on flat land, but with the axe in front this warrior is mostly for spawnbusting and will hardly ever fight. If a fight is unavoidable it can always retreat into the forest.

I would also generally have preferred two warriors over one axe at this point, while keeping a worker close by to road the copper in case of need. The W can cover twice the are of the axe.

The warrior in hadru should have started moving a few turns ago, such that it stops fogbusting (or spawnbusting if you feel lucky. Without vision on the tile a barb city chould have spawned.) the tile when the settler moves in to cover it. I think that wouold have been 2 turns ago. It could now be well on its way to help spawnbusting the south.

 

[jorissimo]

T74:

Spoiler :

I finished the Mids and didn't even make a serious effort

I have:
- Sailing, Agri, BW, Hunting, Pottery, Mysticism, Writing
- 4 cities
- 13 pop
- 4 warriors, 2 axes, 5 workers, 1 WB
- 2 farms (1 corn), 5 mines (1 copper, 2 silver), 10 cottages (2 hamlets), 1 camp (deer)
- 47 bpt at 100%

The capital built a settler for Hippo in 10 turns. Silver city 1 (Utica) hard built a boat for it. Then the capital put some hammers into a granary and then started on the Mids as soon as Hippo was settled. Utica and Hadru were left with 1 worker each to build some more improvements. Then they joined the other workers in the capital to chop the Mids and cottage. The cap got unhappy due to a lack of defenders so spent some turns building an axe (probably a mistake before finishing the Mids).

Hadru hard-built a worker when it reached size 2, working the fish and a silver mine. Then it went back to building a granary. Utica also put hammers into a cottage after finishing the boat. I'm aiming not to whip those 2 cities.

Hippo put hammers into a granary while waiting for Mysticism to finish, then switched to a monument, which was whipped at size 2. Then it went back to the granary. 1 worker roaded to Hippo before it was founded, then cottaged the floodplain and went to help Carthage.

In accordance with @a pen-dragon , my next city will be the corn sharing spot, and city 6 will be the western rice spot, and city 6 will be the eastern rice spot.

However, there might be reason to settle the western fish spot (on the hill, 1 N of c), as the warrior there uncovered a yielded ocean tile that could never be worked by any city on my continent. We may have a closer neighbor than we think, although it could just be an island.

 

[soundjata]

Very good news. Monarchy isn't required.

Great People plan ?
I would forgo academy for sure. Just nurture a couple o' great scientists to bulb astro circa 130.

Pump up the commerce. Whip infrastructures except forges.
cottages > scientists > coast I suppose.

Rice city only when health requires it (it will slow down the optics date)

 

[a pen-dragon]

IMHO it is now a bit late for checking the additional land. Building settler, getting a monument and a border expansion each take time, meaning it will come barely before optics, and hardly provide any advantage.

Very good news. Monarchy isn't required.

Great People plan ?
I would forgo academy for sure. Just nurture a couple o' great scientists to bulb astro circa 130.

Pump up the commerce. Whip infrastructures except forges.
cottages > scientists > coast I suppose.

Rice city only when health requires it (it will slow down the optics date)

+1

Again a few things I think to be micro mistakes:

• Hadrumentum has a mine and is working it. It should grab the second silver and Utica should work the cottage. Hadru also should get its own grassland cottage.
• The warrior in the Ice can safely go 1S, scouting a bit, but more importantly spawnbusting galleys.
• The road towards Hippo is unnecessary, roading 1NE of Carthage would have connected it due to coast + river, saving 2 WT (+3 from not building a desert road -1 from moving).
• Barbs can still spawn in the NE, not a problem due to axe close by, but keep in mind that they may beeline Carthage, with only a warrior in the path. The unit in Carthage should probably go there, as happiness is currently sufficient. Build a new garrison later.

 

[sampsa]

No stone fail gold at all?

 

[Fippy]

Would be an interesting discussion, what's better..
Pyras or almost 500g later.

GE can bulb most of machinery, another interesting one.

 

[Thrasybulos]

One thing which bothers me greatly: all that non-explored coast in the South and NE.
First, I don't think barb galleys spawnbusting is covered, which could be a major headache for Hadrumentum.
Second, and this is a genuine question: wouldn't that prevent coastal connections with the Eastern part of your island? (granted, you have a river network for that purpose anyway).
Last, but this is non-expert me: half the fun of iso is dot-mapping. Cities go where you want, not where the AI lets you. At this stage, I'd want perfect information for the perfect dotmap.

 

[a pen-dragon]

wouldn't that prevent coastal connections with the Eastern part of your island?

Yes, it would.

 

[sampsa]

Southern fog buster 1S. The mountain inside culture means you have visibility on the tile 1S drops.

I think it's a horrible position which you will understand when you replay the map with a different strategy. There is potential for much more.

 

[jorissimo]

One thing which bothers me greatly: all that non-explored coast in the South and NE.
First, I don't think barb galleys spawnbusting is covered, which could be a major headache for Hadrumentum.
Second, and this is a genuine question: wouldn't that prevent coastal connections with the Eastern part of your island? (granted, you have a river network for that purpose anyway).
Last, but this is non-expert me: half the fun of iso is dot-mapping. Cities go where you want, not where the AI lets you. At this stage, I'd want perfect information for the perfect dotmap.

I agree with the barb galley thing and will have to do something about it. MC is not far away though. But I'm not sure I care about the perfect dotmap at this stage. What could be in the fog? Some seafood at most. Nothing we'd want to grab before Optics at least.

 

[jorissimo]

Southern fog buster 1S. The mountain inside culture means you have visibility on the tile 1S drops.

I think it's a horrible position which you will understand when you replay the map with a different strategy. There is potential for much more.

Well, horrible is a strong word isn't it? I've definitely been in worse positions, believe me

There's always potential for more, especially when someone of my skill level plays a map

 

[sampsa]

Yes, mostly joking of course since I think it's a relatively straightforward win from there. But I don't think the play has been strong so far, it's just a rich map.

 

[jorissimo]

Just letting you guys know I'm entering into a busy period again so will be less active but I definitely intend to play this out until Optics