Learning Diety: Hateshput Re-roll

[Revent]

Hi everyone, as mentioned in the previous thread, I felt all the gold wouldn't have helped me as much in learning the game and would have made it a lot easier to win. Hence, I decided to re-roll the map and give it another shot.

Really sorry about creating another thread, but that game may not have been as helpful in learning for me. But thanks everyone!

Enjoy!

I think SIP seems sensible here.
AH->Fishing->Mining->BW seems sensible to me I think although it is dependant on whether or not I find horse.

Worker->Warrior->Workboat

 

[Manco Capac]

Move your warrior 1SW to scout the western coastal region because if you SIP, you may kill a juicy fish. Those fish spots are sometimes quite badly located. If a fish is located 1SW of the most western clam, SIP means automatic loss of the fish for the whole game (except as a trade bait). And if a fish is there, then move to that FPH (forested plain hill).
SIP is indeed cute, but loads of food for a single city and only the pig is shar-able short term.

 

[Revent]

Right, so no fish over there thankfully. However, I have a feeling that settling 1N may be better in the long term because I see only 3 mines in the BFC and I may need some hammers to get some warriors/axes/archers/wc's out in the beginning and two hills might not be strong enough for some early production. Thoughts on that?

 

[Gumbolt]

The issue with settling in place is you may quickly get boxed in by 1-2 AI. The Ai culture will eat up even a capital. Hard to share the resources too. Coastal starts are slow. Chopping early on will give extra hammer. Least the coast resources will offer limited commerce.

Maybe a chance for land by sea.

 

[Revent]

The issue with settling in place is you may quickly get boxed in by 1-2 AI. The Ai culture will eat up even a capital. Hard to share the resources too. Coastal starts are slow. Chopping early on will give extra hammer. Least the coast resources will offer limited commerce.

Maybe a chance for land by sea.

Also to bear in mind is that I am creative, so it may not be as easy to culture steal me. I normally find myself taking culture from the AI as creative more often than not.
Lots of clam means I will have a lot to trade around providing minimal coastal starts. Also considering going AH->Mining->BW->Fishing->Sailing and get TGLH if none of the AI are coastal.

 

[shakabrade]

Hm, not so sure about AH first. You'll have a worker with nothing to do for a long time.
I'd start with fishing and with 5 hammers of production that WB will be out really fast. Then proceed to BW for whips and chops. You could easily be boxed in so you want to have ability to send those settlers out quickly. If you really want that GLH, those pigs will have to wait until you research Sailing and Masonry.

Interesting how I suggest BW again.

Edit: That grassland tile is very suspicious...

 

[Manco Capac]

I won't move 1N if I was you. To me...it is always a > unless a special condition forces me to move onto a food (another juicy resource, settle on food resource to start exploding...). You settle on that FPH, you win something. You settle on that flood plain, you win nothing except a bit of more hammers long terms and possible pig sharing. But faster starts are something very precious. And consider that green bare plot to bear something like a copper/horses or iron plot, thus by definition you third production plot.

BW vs AH is a matter of what the surroundings are proposing. And here is a little trick (which I won't even consider an exploit given its almost non-existent gain): at Turn 0, unselect your tech choice until T5 and do this for each turn. At T5, commit your tech choice as all the time, you accumulated the beakers in a virtual "bank". If you don't commit at T5, you may either get the beakers distributed either on Hunting or Archery (not sure for hunting).
While holding the tech committing, sometimes, the warrior has time to report nice and lush plots.
And a large lump of beakers are more sensible to natural pre-requisite-techs-discounts like AH receives a 20% from each pre-requisite tech (Agri here). But given the power of Fishing in that situation, I agree of starting boats. And think about the timing: working that pig while training a warrior takes 8 turns...both. And fishing is about the same time. And then your work a grass forest plus that plain hill forest. That means 6 per turn for a 5 turns WB.

 

[jihe]

Hm, not so sure about AH first. You'll have a worker with nothing to do for a long time.
I'd start with fishing and with 5 hammers of production that WB will be out really fast. Then proceed to BW for whips and chops. You could easily be boxed in so you want to have ability to send those settlers out quickly. If you really want that GLH, those pigs will have to wait until you research Sailing and Masonry.

Interesting how I suggest BW again.

Edit: That grassland tile is very suspicious...

Pigs is so much better than clams, if you look at the yield. One pig tile = 2 clams for food provided. You grow much quicker on pigs. Also just farming the floodplain will be almost as good as clams, the worker has plenty to do, including roading to the next site.
Fishing is terrible first tech without fish.

 

[pigswill]

You re-rolled because of 1 gold. How much commerce do you get from 3 clams?

 

[Revent]

Hm, not so sure about AH first. You'll have a worker with nothing to do for a long time.
I'd start with fishing and with 5 hammers of production that WB will be out really fast. Then proceed to BW for whips and chops. You could easily be boxed in so you want to have ability to send those settlers out quickly. If you really want that GLH, those pigs will have to wait until you research Sailing and Masonry.

Interesting how I suggest BW again.

Edit: That grassland tile is very suspicious...

I'm thinking of this city as an eventual GP farm so was thinking of farming the floodplains so the worker wouldn't be that idle. GLH isn't a priority to be honest, it's just a side benefit that if it comes, it comes, but it's not what I need/want.
Yes it is and it better not be ******* iron

I won't move 1N if I was you. To me...it is always a > unless a special condition forces me to move onto a food (another juicy resource, settle on food resource to start exploding...). You settle on that FPH, you win something. You settle on that flood plain, you win nothing except a bit of more hammers long terms and possible pig sharing. But faster starts are something very precious. And consider that green bare plot to bear something like a copper/horses or iron plot, thus by definition you third production plot.

BW vs AH is a matter of what the surroundings are proposing. And here is a little trick (which I won't even consider an exploit given its almost non-existent gain): at Turn 0, unselect your tech choice until T5 and do this for each turn. At T5, commit your tech choice as all the time, you accumulated the beakers in a virtual "bank". If you don't commit at T5, you may either get the beakers distributed either on Hunting or Archery (not sure for hunting).
While holding the tech committing, sometimes, the warrior has time to report nice and lush plots.
And a large lump of beakers are more sensible to natural pre-requisite-techs-discounts like AH receives a 20% from each pre-requisite tech (Agri here). But given the power of Fishing in that situation, I agree of starting boats. And think about the timing: working that pig while training a warrior takes 8 turns...both. And fishing is about the same time. And then your work a grass forest plus that plain hill forest. That means 6 per turn for a 5 turns WB.

SIP it is then

Thanks for the trick! That's really neat!!

To also bear in mind though is that green tile may be a resource, and barbs may be pretty tricky for me on this level so I'd want to try my best to try for a resource ASAP.

But my reasoning is below. I hope I made some sense

You re-rolled because of 1 gold. How much commerce do you get from 3 clams?

I managed to get 4 golds in that game


---
On SIP, I get a worker in 12 turns.
It takes me 13 turns to research AH so I will have one idle turn with the worker where I can half build a road on the pigs.
So 4 turns for a pasture, 2 for the road, 7 for farming the floodplains. That's 13 turns in total once the worker comes out, so on turn 25, my worker will have run out of things to do.

However, if I get horses in the BFC, the worker will be busy for another 6 turns so I will be free with the worker hopefully just in time for my settler.

But, if it turns out being copper in the BFC, the worker will have 12 free turns in which he could road to next city site. If it's neither, I'm probably screwed

RE fishing, Clams only give 4 food so putting 30 hammers at the cost of growth for those 4 food makes little sense to me because the floodplain can be farmed in 7 to give the same result and the city grows whilst I'm farming the FP.

Plus, if I am on a coast, I'd like to also have BW asap (for copper and chopping/whipping) otherwise I could get boxed in fairly quickly.

Two routes concluding from above:

1)AH->Mining->BW->Fishing
2)AH->Fishing->Mining->BW

Both will give me great power over pumping out settlers due to lots of food, however I am leaning towards route 1 purely because I could later chop out wb's at leisure.

Further insight would be great!

 

[Rusten]

Just ignore the clams. The start is strong just due to the PH, river pigs and fp. Later you'll have some more river hills. The clams are just a distraction at the moment.

AH -> BW.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

For this start I would most definitely go Mining -> Bronze Working -> Animal Husbandry instead of the other way around. As if you go the first route your worker will have about 10 turns of doing nothing, and that is a waste. You are going to want an early Pottery none the less, personally I would go BW -> Pottery but that is just me.

 

[Rusten]

Why are people so obsessed with cottaging FP? There is no extra gain from having it on the fp compared to other tiles. Pasture the pigs, farm the FP, mine the hills and chop to start with.
Delay pottery.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Because you have 4 riverside tiles to cottage, and 4 other non riverside green tiles to work. Your capital is going to need commerce some how, and getting it early is ALWAYS better than later. Going BW -> Pot -> AH allows for a very quick no gold Writing. And I am not sure if you get this but faster Writing means faster wins, and more wins.

 

[Manco Capac]

@ZZZ

You're not going to change Rusten's mind. He is pretty consistent to what he said in the old times...

I would have gone with fishing first while working the corn tile to grow the capital because the financial trait makes the clams better.

Not even close. Riverside corn is much, much better.

But personally, although there is probably a better route, something more optimal than all other routes, I think if the game is enough kind, everyone is entitled to follow a strategic path. We are targeting a win, not the fastest date on a certain victory and not necessarily a military path, which requires good establishing of the empire.

With good AI manipulation and opportunity correctly spotted and taken later in the game, then a win is very possible even with a no so good early action. I remember a few times where my early path was terrible, but made it albeit.

EDIT: Yeah, that quote doesn't have to do with the cottage theory, but I meant in my entire post, people are entitled of their choices if it is reasonable.
For instance, I tend to screw my early peaceful games with wrong paths, but I catch up as the game progress (on deity).

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

@ZZZ

You're not going to change Rusten's mind. He is pretty consistent to what he said in the old times...



But personally, although there is probably a better route, something more optimal than all other routes, I think if the game is enough kind, everyone is entitled to follow a strategic path. We are targeting a win, not the fastest date on a certain victory and not necessarily a military path, which requires good establishing of the empire.

With good AI manipulation and opportunity correctly spotted and taken later in the game, then a win is very possible even with a no so good early action. I remember a few times where my early path was terrible, but made it albeit.

EDIT: Yeah, that quote doesn't have to do with the cottage theory, but I meant in my entire post, people are entitled of their choices if it is reasonable.
For instance, I tend to screw my early peaceful games with wrong paths, but I catch up as the game progress (on deity).

Peaceful????? What is that?

But if Rusten has prior knowledge of the map then he is correct as going AH first is the only way you are going to get land. Your neighbor on this map will have 6 cities by the time you have 2.

 

[Rusten]

You have plenty of commerce here just from rivers. No reason to get into cottages until monarchy and then grow to size 15-20 quickly. Cottaging takes so many worker turns, chopping gives you 20 hammers instantly.

But I should stop this before it moves on, had too many of these discussions. Dropping it. IDC who's wrong/right -- good night.

 

[ChaosSlayer]

re: cottages on flood plains

mathematically there is no difference between:

cottages on flood plains and farms on empty grassland

VS

cottages on empty grassland and farms on flood plains

anyway you place them you will get identical amounts of food and commerce

HOWEVER, while your city is still young and growing you need FOOD and can't spare the workforce to work the cottage tiles. By placing cottages on flood plains you killing 2 birds with 1 stone: getting as much food from FP as irrigated farm can give you AND working the cottages up at the same time.
When your population grows extra workforce, you can irrigate the grasslands.

 

[Mylene]

For me this would be a GLH start ~~
It's possible i'd ignore AH, grow with Warris cos this could be easy for spawn busting and there are 2 good unimproved tiles, and go BW first.. whip a worker, then sailing.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

For me this would be a GLH start ~~
It's possible i'd ignore AH, grow with Warris cos this could be easy for spawn busting and there are 2 good unimproved tiles, and go BW first.. whip a worker, then sailing.

I thought that at first also, but there is a lot of land you can get just from abusing your OP UU.