Less Immigration is Racist?

[Lexicus]

That's a bit broader than I'm used to. If people think that having different policies based on countries is racist, that ruins discussion. I'd have to tease out the more classical understanding of 'racist' and then just from there. Obviously, one can have a racist opinion of a country, but it's also impossible to not discriminate based on country

FWIW country of origin is a class mentioned in the Civil Rights Act alongside race and protected from discrimination. In terms of immigration law, I'd say we moved from a regime of clear discriminatory intent to disparate impact with the immigration reform of 1965, but it is not entirely clear to me how we could avoid any sort of "disparate impact" with respect to country of origin simply because of geography if nothing else.

 

[El_Machinae]

Wealth, education, even language you're better off considering the individual rather than the country.

How would you determine someone's education without factoring in their government?

 

[Rashiminos]

I would say it is not necessarily racist, but there should be an "ist" to describe discrimination on the basis of nationality. Nationalist could do, but that is used to mean something different.

From the standpoint of moral philosophy I do not get the axioms that would make discrimination on the basis of nationality moral but discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion or all the others that are acknowledged as bad immoral.

Chauvinist? Not quite modern and current, but it used to be used to describe over-the-top-my-nation-is-better-than-yours stuff.

Yes, chauvinism works. It tends to indicate the nation/country being favored instead of the foreign groups being disfavored.

Pro- New Zealand
Pro-French
Pro-American (America First)
etc etc

As to Samson's statement, I suppose that depends on whether you think nations, states, countries, ..., polities should be homologous around the planet, or if they can be allowed to be heterologous. If you're tempted to suggest I should have used the words homogeneous and heterogeneous in that last sentence, well I believe we have arrived at the crux of the situation.

 

[AmazonQueen]

How would you determine someone's education without factoring in their government?

By their qualifications.

 

[Rashiminos]

Opposition to immigration in the US is pretty much exclusively racism. Maybe not 100%. But close enough as it makes no difference.

I don't think the proportion is that high, but I do see people sharing most of your principles, but still opposing the current and potentially higher levels of immigration, beginning to lean into the "racism is good, actually" line of argumentation, at least in comparison to supporting expanded immigration. Liberal and/or leftist, but overtly racist.

"Cultural dilution" is just racism which won't man up and admit to being racist.

Lol. Okay. How do you figure? Can you trace elements of cultural anxieties to their counterpart racial anxieties? Completely?

 

[Samson]

Yes, chauvinism works. It tends to indicate the nation/country being favored instead of the foreign groups being disfavored.

Pro- New Zealand
Pro-French
Pro-American (America First)
etc etc

As to Samson's statement, I suppose that depends on whether you think nations, states, countries, ..., polities should be homologous around the planet, or if they can be allowed to be heterologous. If you're tempted to suggest I should have used the words homogeneous and heterogeneous in that last sentence, well I believe we have arrived at the crux of the situation.

homogeneous: of the same kind; alike
homologous: having the same relation, relative position, or structure

It is not the polities that should have the same relative position, but the members of those polities. But otherwise, I think I agree. We should have the same same relations and/or relative position but not all be alike.

 

[Rashiminos]

So for instance you might think that America and China should be structurally similar (if not their entire compositions). Who do you give the bad news to first?

Actually, reading through the thread, I think your case is even more naive than that.

 

[El_Machinae]

By their qualifications.

.... but qualifications come from institutions? Like, "I have the equivalent of a high school degree" means that we need to factor in where the degree is from? How can it not?

But this is neither here nor there, and I could very easily be behind in the conversation. While trying to figure out if an accreditation was any good, I can see how racism would bias the decision, but I surely can't see not factoring in the actual institution. Like, if a region can or cannot generate reliable qualifications, the outcome of that fact will present in an immigration bias regarding people of that region that has nothing to do with 'race', even if we associate one with that region.

If I need nurses, then surely we'd want people from regions that can accredit nurses? And that will definitely need to factor in the government of where they come from?

 

[Rashiminos]

Sorry, but that's just straight up stupid, and just another example of overusing a word for shock value to the point it loses all meaning.

Less stupid and more ironic.

Can you point at any examples where it is not?

Gun culture. I think.

No. I am saying that every example I can think of where "Cultural dilution" or some such argument is used can be described as racism. The two examples that spring to mind are the Yugoslav conflicts and the stereotypical English nationalist, and they are both usually described as racism. You have failed to give a counter example.

I'm not sure Akka and I had the same interpretation of Cutlass's statement as you did. At for least for me, it seemed to say that anxieties about "cultural dilution" can always, should, and must be described as racism. If that was the intended interpretation.. I find it howlingly hilarious.

A mob outside some burning homes chanting "This is because we are economically anxious, we're very much not racist!"

"This is what democracy looks like."

Oh, on a personal note : I'm quite attached to my own culture, and I really dislike the pervasiveness of US cultural influence that is, precisely, diluting it. I'd like the US culture to be a bit more restricted to the US. How much racist is this ?
Ironically, one of the aspects that really annoy me in US culture is precisely this pathological obsession with races and making antything and everything about it.

"You will be made to care." I'm in a similar boat and I live in the US.

 

[AmazonQueen]

.... but qualifications come from institutions? Like, "I have the equivalent of a high school degree" means that we need to factor in where the degree is from? How can it not?

But this is neither here nor there, and I could very easily be behind in the conversation. While trying to figure out if an accreditation was any good, I can see how racism would bias the decision, but I surely can't see not factoring in the actual institution. Like, if a region can or cannot generate reliable qualifications, the outcome of that fact will present in an immigration bias regarding people of that region that has nothing to do with 'race', even if we associate one with that region.

If I need nurses, then surely we'd want people from regions that can accredit nurses? And that will definitely need to factor in the government of where they come from?

I'd agree that in judging a qualification you have to judge the institution, but the country is irrelevant. Some UK universities are highly regarded, others not so much. Also there is such a thing as foreign students.
Are you going to say I'll take English graduates because their universities are good, but not the many Chinese, Indians, Africans and others who study here?

 

[Rashiminos]

Which is just a friendlier way for white Americans to say they are afraid of race mixing.

Well, if the proposition holds, black Americans and cultural appropriation is that same fear.

Or maybe African Americans have always been, and continue to be, prevented from fully assimilating?

By?

 

[El_Machinae]

It's not just education. What things are considered federal from my Canadian background? Criminal record springs to mind. The quality of those records are going to depend so much on the country itself. Heck, even in your example, we're assuming that the UK has done some of the underlying vetting.

I agree that 'country of origin' is too general. But there are so many underlying qualifications that depend on the trustworthiness of the local society from whom we're importing.

Like, I'm going to trust a high school diploma and a criminal record check from the UK waaaaaay more than one from (say) Antarctica, if only because we know way more about the quality of UK records and institutions. (Antarctica chosen because obviously they don't have quality high schools and justice systems). That's not 'racist' as I understand the term, though obviously a racist would have a harder time sorting the list accurately.

 

[Rashiminos]

We're going to see a Voyage of the Damned from some coming climate change related famine and they're going to be turned away again.

The hard part is insulating the people who do not wish to volunteer for refugee resettlement from the people who do.

 

[Lexicus]

I mean, again I'm just stunned that people can't manage to see such basic yet fundamental conceptual difference.

So you can't even see the difference between "being attached to one's culture and wanting to preserve it" and "thinking other races are inferior" ? Seriously ?

Sure, in theory there is a hard and fast line here...in reality, not so much. For reasons spelled out here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_racism

Three main arguments as to why beliefs in intrinsic and insurmountable cultural differences should be considered racist have been put forward. One is that hostility on a cultural basis can result in the same discriminatory and harmful practices as belief in intrinsic biological differences, such as exploitation, oppression, or extermination. The second is that beliefs in biological and cultural difference are often interlinked and that biological racists use claims of cultural difference to promote their ideas in contexts where biological racism is considered socially unacceptable. The third argument is that the idea of cultural racism recognises that in many societies, groups like immigrants and Muslims have undergone racialization, coming to be seen as distinct social groups separate from the majority on the basis of their cultural traits.

Most particularly, racists have learned to couch their talk of biological difference in terms of cultural difference instead, but "culture" can function quite similarly to "race" as a form of essentializing difference between people.

I would say that openly claiming your culture is superior to others and should be "preserved" by repressing people is pretty troubling regardless of whether we label it "racism" or not.

 

[Cutlass]

I don't think the proportion is that high, but I do see people sharing most of your principles, but still opposing the current and potentially higher levels of immigration, beginning to lean into the "racism is good, actually" line of argumentation, at least in comparison to supporting expanded immigration. Liberal and/or leftist, but overtly racist

Funny how only racists see it that way, isn't it?

Lol. Okay. How do you figure? Can you trace elements of cultural anxieties to their counterpart racial anxieties? Completely?

I mean. that is explicitly what they are. There is in absolute terms no pretense that it is anything other than explicit racism.

 

[Joij21]

I would say it is not necessarily racist, but there should be an "ist" to describe discrimination on the basis of nationality.

Xenophobic?

Looks like the government is pulling the plug. I got called racist a couple of years ago for mentioning this. When ideology over rules common sense.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/442754/government-announces-reset-of-immigration-system

Turns out 30% population growth in 15 odd years isn't a great idea (avg house price just hit 900k). Governments spending a million dollars a day in emergency housing and billions in rent subsidies via the welfare system (more rent you pay bigger benefit payment).

In addition to outstripping housing infrastructure has been put under increasing pressure along with schools, health etc and large wait times for tradies and doctors. In some places apparently you can't get a doctor's appointment or there is a 6 month wait.

We haven't built 30% more hospitals, teacher graduates, or doctors/nurses etc.

Privatize the profits (landlords, employers), socialize the losses.

Article mentions.

Wage suppression
Exploitation of migrants
Temporary visas doubled in ten years
Highest % of temporary workers in the OECD

Another article has pointed out that it's added virtually nothing to NZs economy just cheap labour. The wages paid tend to go in rent and back to other countries.

Creating all sorts of social problems piled on with Covid related shortages. New immigrants have citizenship I suppose very little outflow now.

I don't think less immigration is racist. Sometimes it just makes economic sense if you don't want your country to experience overpopulation.

 

[Rashiminos]

Funny how only racists see it that way, isn't it?



I mean. that is explicitly what they are. There is in absolute terms no pretense that it is anything other than explicit racism.

Well, I tried to get you to stop from scoring an own goal, but oh well. Your opposition to X is racist, provided whatever X is can be expressed in cultural terms. And since you see yourself as a racist, yes, it's enormously hilarious.

 

[Farm Boy]

Who's "we"?

I'll give anyone who argues for immigration, probably within limits(because social and governmental institutions are actually finite in their capacity to adjust), regardless of qualifications or "economic usefulness" have a small pass. With any such qualifications, nah. Work visas are generally class enforcement.

 

[innonimatu]

I see there is at least one person here claiming that social class discrimination is "racism". Certain americans have gone crazy, everything is "racism". Which means that nothing is and racism ceases to mean anything.

I now know why that country is so screwed up with racism. Too many people so obsesses with it that racism cannot end there.

 

[Lexicus]

I'll give anyone who argues for immigration, probably within limits(because social and governmental institutions are actually finite in their capacity to adjust), regardless of qualifications or "economic usefulness" have a small pass. With any such qualifications, nah. Work visas are generally class enforcement.

Do you think blaming your fellow workers who simply happen to come from the wrong country for a problem caused by the boss is pro-working-class?