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Less Immigration is Racist?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Zardnaar, May 17, 2021.

  1. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Looks like the government is pulling the plug. I got called racist a couple of years ago for mentioning this. When ideology over rules common sense.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/442754/government-announces-reset-of-immigration-system

    Turns out 30% population growth in 15 odd years isn't a great idea (avg house price just hit 900k). Governments spending a million dollars a day in emergency housing and billions in rent subsidies via the welfare system (more rent you pay bigger benefit payment).

    In addition to outstripping housing infrastructure has been put under increasing pressure along with schools, health etc and large wait times for tradies and doctors. In some places apparently you can't get a doctor's appointment or there is a 6 month wait.

    We haven't built 30% more hospitals, teacher graduates, or doctors/nurses etc.

    Privatize the profits (landlords, employers), socialize the losses.

    Article mentions.

    Wage suppression
    Exploitation of migrants
    Temporary visas doubled in ten years
    Highest % of temporary workers in the OECD

    Another article has pointed out that it's added virtually nothing to NZs economy just cheap labour. The wages paid tend to go in rent and back to other countries.

    Creating all sorts of social problems piled on with Covid related shortages. New immigrants have citizenship I suppose very little outflow now.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  2. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I would say it is not necessarily racist, but there should be an "ist" to describe discrimination on the basis of nationality. Nationalist could do, but that is used to mean something different.

    From the standpoint of moral philosophy I do not get the axioms that would make discrimination on the basis of nationality moral but discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion or all the others that are acknowledged as bad immoral.
     
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  3. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    How does this affect Pacifier Islanders?

    Do you honestly think that telling local workers to do the jobs exploited workers are currently doing is going to be a sustainable business model? How does this improve the predatory state of the existing industry, which is a driver for these problems, in the first place?
     
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  4. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Chauvinist? Not quite modern and current, but it used to be used to describe over-the-top-my-nation-is-better-than-yours stuff.
     
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  5. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Work used to be done by NZers.

    Recently it was revealed that the wages are barely higher than when I did it 20+ years ago and in the 90's.

    Or if they are they charge you rent. Used to be free rent and you could get around double the minimum wage without a huge amount of effort.

    School/university holidays rolled around it was kinda fun.

    The money leaves the country or stats with the grower. A little gets spent in groceries I suppose.

    It's only a few extra cents at retail to pay a living wage but there's other issues there.
     
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  6. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Hmmmm. Through what means are these immigrants compelling landlords/managers/politicians to mess with NZers?
     
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  7. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    So, ignoring the whole asking you about the Pacifier Islanders thing, you seemed to have missed my point.

    Work used to be done by NZers. It is no longer done by NZers. How do you rectify that without increasing wages, thus causing an impact on these predatory companies all too willing to charge lower-than-fair wages in the first place? They're not going to start suddenly paying fair wages out of the goodness of their collective hearts.

    This move by the government really doesn't seem like it's hitting the right place. I mean, sure, it's appealing to nationalist (and worse) rhetoric, but that's hardly governance. I don't see it changing anything for the better.
     
  8. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    I don't necessarily believe opposition to immigration needs to be racist, per se, however the agitprop which is disseminated regarding this issue is almost always incredibly racist in character.

    Western countries with low birth rates need an influx of immigrants to keep the state capitalist pyramid scheme rolling. It's impossible to sustain a perpetually growing consumer economy if your population plateaus and if it starts to decline you are sunk.

    No matter what happens to the above-board immigration system in the US, NZ, etc. migrants will continue to be funneled into your society. There is literally nothing to be done about this and the people currently in power all know it. The choice available to us is whether or not we allow them full citizenship or swell the ranks of an underclass.
     
  9. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

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    The liberals hate labor controls? I'm starting to understand why they sort of want capital to entirely obsolete labor with technology, but I don't think they adequately understand where that path leads. The sell seems to be entirely Big Rock Candy Mountain.
     
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  10. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I am not sure it is exactly liberals who are working to bring about automation. It is some combination of capitalists, scientists and engineers. Some of them may well be liberal, but I would guess as a population are to the right of wider society. What some liberals here are doing is discussing how to structure society in the presence of automation that takes over most low paid jobs.
     
  11. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    We need migrants but the rate was to high to fast. We had the highest rate in the OECD iirc.

    No one sat down and worked out how many we needed, what we needed, where we needed them and how many we could absorb.

    And now there's a housing crisis, stressed infractture, congestion etc.

    It's costing the government hundreds if millions of dollars if not billions and priced the younger generation out and suppressed their wages.
     
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  12. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    No one would possibly calculate an optimum number of immigrants. This stuff is pure politics. Consensus must be reached on all details big and small and I doubt anyone has any real solid information outside of prior knowledge of which communities actually need labor and can absorb the influx. Paradoxically the areas which need people the most are usually the ones whose locals most strenuously object. There's obviously some bigotry at work but too many on the left are quick to dismiss the notion that hyper-competitive labor markets create and/or exacerbate these tensions.

    Migrants cannot drive up real estate prices because if they had the means to pay they wouldn't be migrants. Unless investments in public housing are made they will be the ones largely rendered homeless or ghettoed while well off natives and foreign investors and money launderers make the problem worse in just about every major urban center world wide. Absentee ownership is a huge problem post 9/11 when the US government attempted to crack down on money laundering.

    Your line is like the people who tried to blame the failures in the US mortgage market on the tiny, tiny volume of loans which were extended to very poor people at the government's behest.
     
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  13. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    I'd say it's safe to assume racist influence or motivations for any complaint or solution that's aimed directly at immigrates, refugees and migrants and not at the reasons why so many people are being pushed to leave their homes in the first place.
     
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  14. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Opposition to immigration in the US is pretty much exclusively racism. Maybe not 100%. But close enough as it makes no difference.
     
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  15. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Nativism isn't necessarily racist. Seems like fear of job loss and cultural dilution (which is kinda dumb as culture necessarily changes & traditions are never stable)
     
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  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Hmmmn, migrants would drive up property prices if they qualified for housing loans. Some migrants bring cash, which (all else being equal) should actually help tame debt-induced instability in the region.
     
  17. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Basically there are three types.

    Well off professional types, students and the guest worker types.

    The first drove up house prices and created the current mess. The RSE visa types exploited and wage suppression and the student type wage suppression as they often work illegally in fast food type places and liquor stores.

    24 hours later.
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/poli...s-immigration-overhaul-slammed-as-racist.html
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
  18. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    "Cultural dilution" is just racism which won't man up and admit to being racist. Fear of job loss is primarily ignorance of how capitalism works. But you'll notice how that goes away when the immigrants in question are white.
     
  19. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Warlord

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    What if the distinction is not "race" but religion or "other" - here I hear quite a few who object to immigration of more Muslims in particular...

    Is that Racism ?

    Or - I remember Rwanda 1990s when the black tribes were butchering eachother like nobody's business

    did "black lives" not matter then ?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
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  20. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    What relevance does BLM have to Rwanda in the 1990s? Be as specific as you can.

    EDIT

    I mean, you make a good point. The thread title is indeed unnecessary limiting by focusing solely on racism as a form of discrimination, when immigration can discriminate in a variety of ways. But Zardnaar wanted to moan about being called a racist, which is why we have the title we have.

    Feel free to substitute "racism" for "discrimination against any particular minority, or groups of minorities". It's a bit wordier, though.
     
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