Let us test Darwin, teacher says

[El_Machinae]

Darwin's theory has been extensively questioned: questioned so much that major portions have been excised from his theory.

The Theory of Evolution is not Darwinism any more than General Relativity is Einsteinism.

 

[warpus]

If we take mutation out of evolution, we are left with the devolution of species (there is less and less genetic information in the world, resulting in less complex species). Because the ancestor species would have all the genetic information for that species, but the new species that evolved from it (because of natural selection, because the population group has been split into seperate groups, no interbreeding between them) would have only part of the genetic information of the ancestor.

Forgive me if i intercede, but wouldn't taking all mutations out of the picture result in 100% of the same dna being produced in all offspring? How would you lose genetic information?

Think about it, a single-celled organism would have to go through an enourmous amount of mutations, all of which were beneficial, all of which the body's stop mechanism failed, to evolve into a mammal.
Life is far too complex and wound together in a system to be random FREAKIN UNLIKELY chance.

You're forgetting that most of the mutations that happen are not beneficial at all. A very small handful are beneficial.

why isn't it kosher to question Darwin? With all these liberals living by the golden rule of "question everything", whenever someone even remotely doubts the truth behind Darwinism they are somehow ********.

People who question Darwin aren't ********.

People who put forth ******** arguments agains the TOE, might be.

 

[Bill3000]

I'm not Christian, I don't believe in ID, and no, I don't have an alternate "idea" of how life came to exist (and anyone who does must be really really sure of themselves, I bet), but I'm not allowed to question this "sacred" theory?

Of course not. You're not a scientist, or an expert in the field, to have the knowledge required to legitimately question it. Most likely you don't really understand evolution, but then again, most laymen don't. It's the simple facts of the matter.

 

[Bluemofia]

Forgive me if i intercede, but wouldn't taking all mutations out of the picture result in 100% of the same dna being produced in all offspring? How would you lose genetic information?

Natural selection weeds out the not so good genes.

And as mentioned before, mutations do happen. They are rare if we consider it by number of nucleotides per mutation, but common if we consider number of mutations per cell division. And most mutations are harmless; they happen in the Junk DNA that makes up something like 75-85% of the Cell's DNA IIRC for Eukaryotes.

And for the claims that mutations don't add information, mutations can add information, and often do when they are miscopied extra chromosomes or parts of chromosomes. Mutations can be anything from frame shift, deletion, insertion, base substitution, chromosonal issues (extra, lacking, extra parts, lack of parts, swaping of parts, etc.).

 

[Antilogic]

Natural selection weeds out the not so good genes.

And as mentioned before, mutations do happen. They are rare if we consider it by number of nucleotides per mutation, but common if we consider number of mutations per cell division. And most mutations are harmless; they happen in the Junk DNA that makes up something like 75-85% of the Cell's DNA IIRC for Eukaryotes.

And for the claims that mutations don't add information, mutations can add information, and often do when they are miscopied extra chromosomes or parts of chromosomes. Mutations can be anything from frame shift, deletion, insertion, base substitution, chromosonal issues (extra, lacking, extra parts, lack of parts, swaping of parts, etc.).

Somebody knows his biology. And for the Junk DNA...that number can go even higher depending on the organism. I believe humans are at the 90% junk mark or higher. We have dozens of old virial strands, stuff like tails that we don't really have (we have a tailbone, not a full tail), etc. etc...

You have to wonder if we were "intelligently designed", why is there so much useless crap stuck in our coding? Or did God not look at his big-O efficiency calculator when he was dreaming up humans?

 

[CurtSibling]

Let us test Darwin, teacher says

I think it is amusing how a bible-whacking teacher thinks he can pit his limited wits against a mind like Darwin.

'Challenge the dead scientist' - That is the only hope of victory the fairy tale believers really have.

...

 

[Sidhe]

Evolution has already been succesfuly tested repeatedly, there's no scientific debate. Biologists don't view countering creationism as a scientific debate, rather a PR struggle.

I wonder why it's even a PR struggle, since the whole deal is not compatible. Relgion is religion, it's a faith deal, science is science it's a proof deal, one doesn't disprove the other and the other doesn't disprove it. Where's the beef? Why do scientists care about faith, and the faithful care about science? It's not as if there ever going to agree? Religious people should try and keep to their religion, and scientists should try and keep to it's proof, never the twain should meet. No science in religous education and no faith in science, it's quite simple.

 

[CurtSibling]

No science in religous education and no faith in science, it's quite simple.

Agree 100%.

 

[Antilogic]

I'd agree with that statement as well. I prefer the system where religion doesn't mettle in the affairs of the natural world--they prefer talking about the arcane "supernatural" stuff like souls. Good, keep it that way. Don't go polluting my textbooks with warnings about how "Evolution is only a Theory". I know it's a theory--that's why it is called the "Theory of Evolution"!

It's as if the religious fundamentalists think they can simply change the way the world works and all its natural laws by praying really hard and clamoring endlessly. Whether or not you like the fact that you are descended from monkeys is irrelevant to whether or not you actually did descend from monkeys.

 

[puglover]

I think it is amusing how a bible-whacking teacher thinks he can pit his limited wits against a mind like Darwin.

'Challenge the dead scientist' - That is the only hope of victory the fairy tale believers really have.

...

Smart guys should never be challenged? Does that sound very scientific?

 

[Bill3000]

Smart guys should never be challenged? Does that sound very scientific?

It's simple. The only people who should argue the merits of a scientific theory are those who understand it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

 

[Antilogic]

It's simple. The only people who should argue the merits of a scientific theory are those who understand it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Thank you, Bill. That's exactly the problem here--unless you can actually name some experiments and their results/conclusions or talk about the subject intelligently, your opinion shouldn't count for anything. As I said earlier, it's not what you would like, but rather what the evidence shows. If your argument is "you like this, not this", well that's dandy! But it's not science.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It's simple. The only people who should argue the merits of a scientific theory are those who understand it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Ironically, the rocket scientists don't go unchallenged either. The people who say we never went to the moon are convinced they understand rocket science better than the rocket scientists.

 

[Antilogic]

Ironically, the rocket scientists don't go unchallenged either. The people who say we never went to the moon are convinced they understand rocket science better than the rocket scientists.

That really confused me. Or when their claims about how dust should act on Luna, for example, are not exactly in sync because they neglect the fact Luna doesn't have an atmosphere!

But, conspiracy theorists will be conspiracy theorists, and fundies will be fundies. You say "that's crazy", and they say "that's what the men in the black helicopters/God wants you to think."

 

[Bluemofia]

You can't fight illogic with logic...

They are incompatible.

 

[Ecclesiastes]

Im not completely ruling out evolution but damnit, it is just a theory, theres no solid proof, and if there is, then I want someone to show or tell me it becuase many of you seem to think its written in stone. Persoanlly, I havnt heard or seen any fossils of half-fly half-giraffes yet(obvious exageration) so I cant be so sure that it even comes close to existing. Further, I woulde like someone to explain how dna changes during reproduction to actually create these new species. As far as I know, a mama and a papa cant give there kid anything they dont have.....as far as I know.

 

[warpus]

Im not completely ruling out evolution but damnit, it is just a theory, theres no solid proof, and if there is, then I want someone to show or tell me it becuase many of you seem to think its written in stone. Persoanlly, I havnt heard or seen any fossils of half-fly half-giraffes yet(obvious exageration) so I cant be so sure that it even comes close to existing. Further, I woulde like someone to explain how dna changes during reproduction to actually create these new species. As far as I know, a mama and a papa cant give there kid anything they dont have.....as far as I know.

First of all, it is a fact as well as a theory.

Secondly, I present you The Human. It's half-prehistoric human and half-future human: A wonderful example of evolution in action.

And thirdly, you can start examining proof here

 

[mangxema]

And thirdly, you can start examining proof here

Or here......

 

[Ecclesiastes]

First of all, it is a fact as well as a theory.

Secondly, I present you The Human. It's half-prehistoric human and half-future human: A wonderful example of evolution in action.

And thirdly, you can start examining proof here

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.
—Idioms6. after the fact, Law. after the commission of a crime: an accessory after the fact.
7. before the fact, Law. prior to the commission of a crime: an accessory before the fact.
8. in fact, actually; really; indeed: In fact, it was a wonder that anyone survived.

the·o·ry /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ries. 1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.

That wouldnt exactly work........so its either or, not both, and for now Im sticking with theory. And thats great that we have pages on these fossils but one, we still dont have any transitional fossils and two, the whole"bird wing was once girl grabber" thing cant be proven, so thats not proof either. As for humans, again, proof that weve ever changed at all.

 

[Adamb0mb]

Ah, the time honored 'that's just a theory' move.

Ecclesiastes, do you take the same skeptical stance with the theory of gravity that you do with the theory of evolution?'