Let's Read the Bible Once

Does the Koran have all the inconsistencies regarding how many sons Abraham had?

The Koran does not even name the offspring that was sacrificed.

Spoiler :
Surah 37:
99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!"
103. So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham! ...
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was a clear trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of Our believing Servants.

112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to themselves.



Let the Christian missionaries study the Qur'ân thoroughly before calling upon ghosts that will frighten nobody but themselves. Indeed, the Biblical version of the story: "sacrifice your only son, Isaac" or "sacrifice your firstborn son, Isaac" is an enigma they must live with.

The whole argument is not with how many sons he had. The author of Genesis 22:2 clearly understood that there would come a time where humans would question the validity of such a command. According to tradition, Abraham did not abandon Ishmael. In fact the whole story behind the Kaba was that both Abraham and Ishmael made pilgrimages there. That these stories were intertwined would seem to indicate that the Koran would have to be written in such a way to be ambiguous yet convincing enough to favor Ishmael, the firstborn son as the intended sacrifice. In fact since it was written the consensus seems to be split down the middle in that half of the Islamic scholars seem to think that it was Isaac and the other half Ishmael. Isaac was the son of promise and according to the Koran was even going to father Jacob, thus they claim that means God would not have told Abraham to offer up Isaac before he could father Jacob.

One can claim that it is a poorly written myth, or one can claim that it is a sign of what God would do when he sent Christ into the world. One can be antagonistic, or one can claim a blessing. Free will is a bugger. Choices can be made, but consequences can be interesting. Maybe there is more to Genesis 3:15 than a straight forward literal reading?
 
According to the Koran, the waves were as tall as mountains. I guess according to your theory (which agrees with the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh)), the waves could easily be taller than mountains because the mountains were all wee and tiny. Your theory helps show how the Koran could be correct
The bible clearly states that the waters were well above the level of the highest mountain.
Perhaps Noah gathered every species of plant on the planet as well.
Sigh. The Bible speaks of kinds, not species. This specification in the Bible is far greater than our species and even the term species is incorrect since we have two unrelated species that can procreate, under our thinking, they are part of the same kind.
A possible flood or flood-plains?

And no one claims it's not possible to have a flood on Earth oh dishonest one of many cop-outs.

The Bible claims that there was a global flood. That is the crux of the issue. Terms of universality are used 60 times in Genesis 6-9. It can't be that way if it were a local event.

How can you get flood plains without flooding?
 
The Bible claims that there was a global flood. That is the crux of the issue. Terms of universality are used 60 times in Genesis 6-9. It can't be that way if it were a local event.
The people who wrote the Bible took it as a global event when it was just a local one. Very simple.

Are you claiming that the people who wrote the Bible knew of the existence of America and Australia? Not only of the existence but they had information that there was a flood there as well? Explain to me why I should give credit to a claim made by people who were ignorant of the world?

And that is assuming ignorance. I can also assume the writers didn't mean to give an historical account, but were telling a story based on their experiences. They did not know their scribblings would end up in the Bible with a couple of people claiming; this really happened! Maybe in 2.000 years people will claim Frodo was a messiah.
How can you get flood plains without flooding?
You said "speculation about a possible flood on Mars.". Implying there was one flood. All you need for flood plains is local flooding.

Explain the relevance of the existence of dried out floodplains on Mars? How does the existence of water in the past on Mars give any credence to a world wide flood on Earth?
 
Are you claiming that the people who wrote the Bible knew of the existence of America and Australia? Not only of the existence but they had information that there was a flood there as well? Explain to me why I should give credit to a claim made by people who were ignorant of the world?

Quite plausible if they were told about the flood by the one who created the continents of America and Australia.
 
Quite plausible if they were told about the flood by the one who created the continents of America and Australia.
Couple of things there.

Again I have to accept the word of the people who wrote the Bible to give it's contents credit. As I had to when CH said: The Bible claims that there was a global flood. That is the crux of the issue. Terms of universality are used 60 times in Genesis 6-9. It can't be that way if it were a local event. The Bible claims global, so it can't be local.

If they knew of these remote placed they failed to mention them anywhere.

The scenarios I opted are more plausible. Everywhere you know is flooded, and you have no knowledge of other places. And there's no evidence for that knowledge in the Bible, which makes your if a very big if. Or this was just meant to be a story, as we have stories today, and the historical claim came later in history.
 
The bible clearly states that the waters were well above the level of the highest mountain.

Yes, sure. And the Koran says that the waves were the size of mountains. With your 'flat Earth' theory, both of those statements seem less fantastic. I mean, if your flat Earth theory is correct, it means that the Koran could've been correct.
 
What does flooding on Mars have to do with a flood on Earth that was, at best, a local event that got blown all out of proportion over the years, if it ever happened at all?

We do not believe that we had to cover the current height of Mt Everest, because the old would was different from this one. http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter12.pdf Read this to give a better understanding of our view on the flood. this from a book Creation Answers Book.
You don't mind if I get my information from sources written by real scientists, do you?

If we were to smooth the earth, that is to push down the mountains and push up the vast depths of the oceans, then we have plenty of water to cover the whole earth. There have been plenty of marine fossils found in mountains and areas that are now very far inland, indicating that they were once under water. Also look up Catastrophic Plate tectonics as this helps to explain the process how this all could happen.
You do realize that all this flattening and uplifting takes a hell of a lot longer than 6000 years, right?

Yes, there were once a lot of oceans where there is now dry land. Where I am sitting right now was once at the bottom of an inland sea... many tens of millions of years ago.
 
The people who wrote the Bible took it as a global event when it was just a local one. Very simple.

Are you claiming that the people who wrote the Bible knew of the existence of America and Australia? Not only of the existence but they had information that there was a flood there as well? Explain to me why I should give credit to a claim made by people who were ignorant of the world?

And that is assuming ignorance. I can also assume the writers didn't mean to give an historical account, but were telling a story based on their experiences. They did not know their scribblings would end up in the Bible with a couple of people claiming; this really happened! Maybe in 2.000 years people will claim Frodo was a messiah.
How can all life perish if is was just a local flood? As we have seen recently with flooding that all you need to do is go to a different area that is not flooding. I mean God told Lot and his family to move from Sodom and Gomorrah, when we destroyed those two cities, but he instructed Noah to build an ark to be able to float on water. If God told one person to flee an area he was going to destroy and told another person a different thing would happen Also I have not seen a local flood last for over one year. Also the Bible says that the water was about 7 meters above the highest mountain. An ark would be useless in a local flood since all you need to do is get to higher ground, whereas the bible says the highest ground was covered and thus the need for the ark.
Genesis7:21-23 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
I have bolded every word of totality and underlined the sole word of singularity. It is very clear that all flesh died and only those on the ark survived. The totality of the destruction would not be possible in a localised event. it is so plain to understand from what is written that you have to deny what is plainly said.
You said "speculation about a possible flood on Mars.". Implying there was one flood. All you need for flood plains is local flooding.

Explain the relevance of the existence of dried out floodplains on Mars? How does the existence of water in the past on Mars give any credence to a world wide flood on Earth?

The speculation is that there was a flood on Mars, but you have to explain how there was water on a planet that has none, whereas we have a planet that is 70% water. Don't you see the contradiction there? The speculation of a flood on a planet with no water compared to the absolute knowledge that there wasn't one on a planet with more than enough water to cover the whole planet. You can also include water that is underground, since the bible says that "the fountains of the great deep were opened".

Couple of things there.

Again I have to accept the word of the people who wrote the Bible to give it's contents credit. As I had to when CH said: The Bible claims that there was a global flood. That is the crux of the issue. Terms of universality are used 60 times in Genesis 6-9. It can't be that way if it were a local event. The Bible claims global, so it can't be local.

If they knew of these remote placed they failed to mention them anywhere.

The scenarios I opted are more plausible. Everywhere you know is flooded, and you have no knowledge of other places. And there's no evidence for that knowledge in the Bible, which makes your if a very big if. Or this was just meant to be a story, as we have stories today, and the historical claim came later in history.
The old world was completely destroyed and the world world as we know it is vastly different.
What does flooding on Mars have to do with a flood on Earth that was, at best, a local event that got blown all out of proportion over the years, if it ever happened at all?


You don't mind if I get my information from sources written by real scientists, do you?
You mean like people who have Doctorates in Physical chemistry, like Dr Sarfati? or a doctorate in Marine Biology, like DrCarter? In Physics, like Dr Hartnett? (Curreently he is the Professor of Physics at UWA, so this guy is certainly teaching right now about Physics, so he is most definitely active right now.) Shall I go on with more? :rolleyes: You can find more about the scientific acheivements of most of the people there http://creation.com/about-us#who_we_are It certainly show how wrong you are in saying they aren't scientists.


You do realize that all this flattening and uplifting takes a hell of a lot longer than 6000 years, right?

Yes, there were once a lot of oceans where there is now dry land. Where I am sitting right now was once at the bottom of an inland sea... many tens of millions of years ago.

All you have given is assumptions. None of what you have said has been observed.
 
How can all life perish if is was just a local flood? As we have seen recently with flooding that all you need to do is go to a different area that is not flooding. I mean God told Lot and his family to move from Sodom and Gomorrah, when we destroyed those two cities, but he instructed Noah to build an ark to be able to float on water. If God told one person to flee an area he was going to destroy and told another person a different thing would happen Also I have not seen a local flood last for over one year. Also the Bible says that the water was about 7 meters above the highest mountain. An ark would be useless in a local flood since all you need to do is get to higher ground, whereas the bible says the highest ground was covered and thus the need for the ark.
Ah, but you see, the fact of the matter is that you expect me to take the Bible's word for gospel truth in order to give credit to the Bible. And that just doesn't work that way.

All evidence that is not based on the Bible speaks against a global flood.
The speculation is that there was a flood on Mars
No, the speculation is that there were local floods on Mars.
but you have to explain how there was water on a planet that has none, whereas we have a planet that is 70% water. Don't you see the contradiction there?
No, because there is none. If Mars had an atmosphere in the past which has disappeared that would be an explanation. So maybe you opt as a possibility that the last 6.000 years Earth has been without atmosphere for a period of time?

And speculation does not equal a scientific claim, but is just that. Speculation.
The speculation of local floods on a planet with no water compared to the absolute knowledge that there wasn't one on a planet with more than enough water to cover the whole planet. You can also include water that is underground, since the bible says that "the fountains of the great deep were opened".
You are wrong there is more than enough water. There is not even close to enough water.
All you have given is assumptions. None of what you have said has been observed.
:mischief:
 
What does flooding on Mars have to do with a flood on Earth that was, at best, a local event that got blown all out of proportion over the years, if it ever happened at all?

If one were to take away the growth of the ocean floor irregardless of how long it has taken to expand, a world wide flood would be local.

You don't mind if I get my information from sources written by real scientists, do you?.

What is an educated guess?

You do realize that all this flattening and uplifting takes a hell of a lot longer than 6000 years, right?.

That would depend on the pressure below the crust. Volcanoes have been known to form quite rapidly. Mountain ranges are still forming and expanding. That they did so at the same constant rate is not a given.

Yes, there were once a lot of oceans where there is now dry land. Where I am sitting right now was once at the bottom of an inland sea... many tens of millions of years ago.

Given enough time anything is possible. If we factor in the unexpected, time is not a factor. Now if things are done too fast, they will not work either, without destruction. I would not say that the old world was destroyed, but I would point out, that it was radically different than what we know today. Scientist predict that it takes a long time. We currently have no concept of rapid change other than specalation, but we have no proof that it cannot happen.
 
Yeah, sure, but then there's also the evidence of slowness. C_H talks about fossils in mountains, but the fossils are arranged in ways that are just incongruous with a rapid flood. Slow deposition over long millennium makes more sense. That said, I do agree with C_H, the Bible is very clear on the nature of the Flood. It's much more clear than (say) the Koran. The compilers of the story had a very specific description in mind.
 
Also I have not seen a local flood last for over one year.
I haven't seen a forest fire ever. Therefore...?

I have, however, seen evidence for forest fires. There is no evidence supporting a global flood.

None.


The speculation is that there was a flood on Mars, but you have to explain how there was water on a planet that has none, whereas we have a planet that is 70% water. Don't you see the contradiction there? The speculation of a flood on a planet with no water compared to the absolute knowledge that there wasn't one on a planet with more than enough water to cover the whole planet. You can also include water that is underground, since the bible says that "the fountains of the great deep were opened".
There is NO speculation that Mars was entirely covered with water. There IS evidence that water flowed in a liquid state in some places. But you really can't get from "water in one area" to "water covering the whole surface".

You really don't see the difference? Mars doesn't have an atmosphere (well, not much of one, at least) but does that mean that there is a contradiction because Earth does? I really don't understand your proposed logical connection here.


The old world was completely destroyed and the world world as we know it is vastly different.
Well, you'd have to go back several billions of years to find Earth in a state that's vastly different (depending on your definition of "vastly"). There is no evidence consistent with this earth that we are on being 'completely destroyed' within the last 3 billion years. There IS evidence that earth was around longer ago than that - we actually have bits of it. In Greenland, Australia, etc. Some pockets of very early continental crust that have not been subducted remain on the surface for us to examine. We can touch it. This earth has been around for far longer than the bible suggests.


You mean like people who have Doctorates in Physical chemistry, like Dr Sarfati? or a doctorate in Marine Biology, like DrCarter? In Physics, like Dr Hartnett? (Curreently he is the Professor of Physics at UWA, so this guy is certainly teaching right now about Physics, so he is most definitely active right now.) Shall I go on with more? :rolleyes: You can find more about the scientific acheivements of most of the people there http://creation.com/about-us#who_we_are It certainly show how wrong you are in saying they aren't scientists.
They are truly exceptional in their fields.



All you have given is assumptions. None of what you have said has been observed.
:mischief: The Irony!
 
Wouldn't most of the land surface be the same even if under water. Or are you saying that there were cataclysmic events that caused such an upheavel? From the science I have been taught it is only on coastal and or "fault" lines where subduction occurs if at all.

We can clearly observe new material being added in the seams on the ocean floor. We just assume that it is subducted somewhere. I doubt it is subducted everywhere.
 
Subduction happens when a dense plate and a less-dense plate collide in such a way that the denser plate flows under the edge of the lighter plate. As the material descends towards the mantle, the rock melts.

In areas where plates are moving or splitting apart, like at some mid-ocean ridges and rift valleys (Lake Baikal is one, oddly), material from the mantle upwells and new crust is formed. In this way, the surface covering of crustal plates is 'recycled'.

There are only a few spots remaining on earth that have never undergone such a recycling so far.

I can't address your question about the land surface being the same underwater, as I don't quite understand it. When land subsides under water from flooding, sea level rise, subsidence, or any other process, there will be evidence of it. Rocks will undergo different chemical weathering if exposed to air, fresh water, or salt water. Different organisms will fossilize depending on the specific aquatic environment. River beds, lake beds, and sea floors leave characteristic sediments that inform us as to the nature of past environments.

If the earth had been entirely covered with water at one time there would be, literally, a layer of sediment world-wide attesting to this, similar to the global-wide vein of iridium left from the impact at Chicxulub.

There is no layer. There was no global flood.

And this doesn't even touch on the issues of moving that much water and the orbital effects on Earth's rotation and revolution.
 
Subduction happens when a dense plate and a less-dense plate collide in such a way that the denser plate flows under the edge of the lighter plate. As the material descends towards the mantle, the rock melts.

Can you point out where this subduction has happened and what used to be soil and rock is now gone?

In areas where plates are moving or splitting apart, like at some mid-ocean ridges and rift valleys (Lake Baikal is one, oddly), material from the mantle upwells and new crust is formed. In this way, the surface covering of crustal plates is 'recycled'..

I am not denying new formation, when was the last new formation and narrow it down to just the North American continent. Has any of that continent been moved from new growth to now it has "remelted" back into the mantle?

There are only a few spots remaining on earth that have never undergone such a recycling so far. .

When was the last time North America was recycled?

I can't address your question about the land surface being the same underwater, as I don't quite understand it. When land subsides under water from flooding, sea level rise, subsidence, or any other process, there will be evidence of it. Rocks will undergo different chemical weathering if exposed to air, fresh water, or salt water. Different organisms will fossilize depending on the specific aquatic environment. River beds, lake beds, and sea floors leave characteristic sediments that inform us as to the nature of past environments..

The land would not subside. The water level would rise, because there would be no where else to go. As the ocean floor spread out pushing the continents further apart, the oceans would lower and eventually large inland seas with one weak boundary would allow their contents to drain out, thus leaving the land dry again, probably higher, but not necessarily. Or because there may have been a disruption in the earths angle of rotation, the water turned into glaciers perhaps rapidly and after a while melted or receded northward.

As far as we know, no continents sink into the earth, and oceans only rise when huge amounts of ice melts at the poles.

If the earth had been entirely covered with water at one time there would be, literally, a layer of sediment world-wide attesting to this, similar to the global-wide vein of iridium left from the impact at Chicxulub..

How much sediment would occur after a few months? Do we not find layers of what would be considered oceanic material at higher elevations than normal? Would not thousands of years of local floods and new growth cover the tracks of a flood that did not last thousands of years?

There is no layer. There was no global flood. .

Would that be your expert analysis from years of study, or reliance on educated guesses? It would seem to me that even experts do not have the resources to take samples from every inch of the known surfaces and declare such a thing. I understand that we can dig down at random and predict that everywhere is the same. Who would even want to expend the resources to verify that every single square mile would yield the same results?

And this doesn't even touch on the issues of moving that much water and the orbital effects on Earth's rotation and revolution.

I could even say that if God knew when he got the ball rolling, that in a known amount of time such a catastophe was going to happen any way, why was the imagination of humans to blame. We all have our own questions, that have mind numbing answers. IMO, the seasons did start after the flood and that there was a drastic change in the way the earth maneuvered it's way through space. I don't think that the flood was the cause, but was just something that happened naturally at a given time.
 
No one is suggesting that floods don't happen, even in the Levant, but when one requires a literal interpretation of the Bible to be an accurate reading, one is rather forced into postulating a truly global flood.
 
Can you point out where this subduction has happened and what used to be soil and rock is now gone?
http://www.platetectonics.com/book/page_5.asp
India is subducting under the Himalayan plateau, for example. As India (the geological formation, not the political entity) moves north, the northernmost edge is forced down towards the center of the earth by the mass of the overlying plate - which is itself forced up, forming the Himalayan plateau. That's one example. Here's a map that shows more, the subduction zones are indicated by a red bar with arrows attached.:

What_is_geothermal_en_html_2f5bdb15.jpg


I am not denying new formation, when was the last new formation and narrow it down to just the North American continent. Has any of that continent been moved from new growth to now it has "remelted" back into the mantle?
Do you mean the last new formation of virgin crust related to North America? This is going to be a bit complicated, I apologize:
The mountains of western North America are a lot more complex than the Andes for a variety of reasons. The Andes are about as close as one can hope to get to a "theoretical" subduction zone. Terrane accretion in the Andes has been relatively unimportant, whereas half or more of the North American Cordillera has been accreted. Indeed, there is some evidence for tectonic erosion along the Andean subduction zone; South American crust may have been scraped off and carried into the subdution zone (probably to be remelted and added to the igneous arc of the Andes). There are rocks two billion years old near the coast of Peru.

In contrast to the Andes, the Rockies contain numerous block-faulted complexes, especially the ranges of Wyoming like the Wind River, Laramie, and Medicine Bow Ranges. The most widely accepted explanation for why tectonic activity extended so far inland in North America is that the subduction zone that once extended along the entire West Coast had a very flat-dipping slab.
Westus2.gif
The map at left is a reconstruction of the Western U.S. about 30 m.y. ago, before the extension of the Basin and Range Province and the opening of the Gulf of California. The Great Basin has been reduced in width by half and Baja California and California west of the San Andreas Fault have been moved southeast to close the Gulf of California.

Mountain building has been going on for more than 50 million years in the Rockys. I don't know if you'd call this 'new growth', as it's primarily uplift of formerly low-lying material. But that happens due to subduction. If you're asking where the subducted material next arises, I don't know if that's a question that can be answered at this point.[/quote]



When was the last time North America was recycled?
Do you mean "How old is the oldest crust of North America?", or do you mean "when is the most recent time that North American Crust was subducted?"[/quote]

There is only one small part of the North American Plate that is now being subducted - and that's happening in a trench off Puerto Rico.

The central core of present-day North America is its craton, the oldest, thickest part of the continent. While parts of the craton peek out in Greenland and Canada, in the U.S., thick layers of sedimentary rocks keep most of these ancient assemblages under wraps in the center of the continent. The rocks here are more than two billion years old in places, andwere assembled through time as smaller microcontinents and terranes, or fragments of crustal material, crashed together.
North_america_craton_nps.jpg


http://www.livescience.com/31910-north-america-geology-through-time.html


The land would not subside. The water level would rise, because there would be no where else to go. As the ocean floor spread out pushing the continents further apart, the oceans would lower and eventually large inland seas with one weak boundary would allow their contents to drain out, thus leaving the land dry again, probably higher, but not necessarily. Or because there may have been a disruption in the earths angle of rotation, the water turned into glaciers perhaps rapidly and after a while melted or receded northward.

As far as we know, no continents sink into the earth, and oceans only rise when huge amounts of ice melts at the poles.
No, Oceans can also form when rifts split continental plates in two. Water spills into the resulting basin. This is happening right now in Baja California, the Red Sea, Lake Baikal, et alia.


How much sediment would occur after a few months? Do we not find layers of what would be considered oceanic material at higher elevations than normal? Would not thousands of years of local floods and new growth cover the tracks of a flood that did not last thousands of years?
yes, we indeed find sediments that were underwater on the peaks of the highest mountains - but in order to support a Global Flood Hypothesis all of these sediments would necessarily be from the same geological event. That's not the case.

The bar that the GFH needs to attain for acceptance is very high, but all that it takes to disprove the hypothesis is a single example of a place that wasn't recently flooded. For that matter, I'd say that all it takes to disprove it is the simple math about the energies and orbital effects, but the doubters here don't seem to want to discuss that aspect, as it's not compatible with a 'simple reading' of the relevant passages.


Would that be your expert analysis from years of study, or reliance on educated guesses? It would seem to me that even experts do not have the resources to take samples from every inch of the known surfaces and declare such a thing. I understand that we can dig down at random and predict that everywhere is the same. Who would even want to expend the resources to verify that every single square mile would yield the same results?
As I mentioned above, we don't need samples from every square inch of the surface of the planet to throw doubt into the GFHypothesis - all it takes is one square inch of counter-factual. Be that as it may, I am not an expert. I'm a guy who finds nature fascinating and spent all his extra credits in college taking courses on earth sciences. But that was a long time ago. All you really need these days is the Internet & Interest.

That's the beauty of science - you don't have to believe me because I'm not an expert, and you don't have to believe any expert, for that matter. But you do have to believe the preponderance of evidence. In the same way that the preponderance of evidence supports the standard model of atomic dynamics that results in microscopic transistors working as designed in the computers we're using right now, you should also trust the preponderance of evidence that geologists and oceanographers use to discount the Global Flood Hypothesis.


I could even say that if God knew when he got the ball rolling, that in a known amount of time such a catastophe was going to happen any way, why was the imagination of humans to blame. We all have our own questions, that have mind numbing answers. IMO, the seasons did start after the flood and that there was a drastic change in the way the earth maneuvered it's way through space. I don't think that the flood was the cause, but was just something that happened naturally at a given time.
If that's your stance then you're placing the GF back around the time of the formation of the Moon - that was likely the last major event that impacted our orbital characteristics. If life was present on the earth at all at that time, we have no evidence for it, and it was almost certainly nothing more than cellular scum. Certainly not Eukaryotic.

Actually, we have tree ring records that show seasonality going back at least through 350,000,000 years ago. So we can place a confident lower bound on the beginning of seasonality based just on this one line of evidence. There are others, though. And none of them are compatible with the GFH as outlined in the bible. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3515368?uid=3739864&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102388292017
 
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