Let's Talk About Death

[Kyriakos]

Your making the mistake of cramming 2 dimensions into 1.

Hmm:

Which can be termed many things, but "mistake" is not really one of them

Sometimes the PoV makes the same object seem to be of more or less dimensions. Yet nothing changes other than the observer being able to move to another position and the resulting horizon from there as well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

^Sounds like dull hyperbole to me.

Such an exiting post to counter your hearing dysfunction

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Hmm:

Which can be termed many things, but "mistake" is not really one of them

Something the PoV makes the same object seem to be of more or less dimensions. Yet nothing changes other than the observer being able to move to another position and the resulting horizon from there as well.

You accidentally forgot to address the argumentation part of my post.

It's right above the part you quoted

 

[Kyriakos]

You accidentally forgot to address the argumentation part of my post.

It's right above the part you quoted

But i just wanted to assault your untimely (and not supported by the previous part of the post) finishing segment

 

[MagisterCultuum]

1) Do you fear death?
1a) Why do you fear death?

Not particularly. I might fear some ways of dying, but don't think of them much as I'm so very rarely in situations were it could seem immanent.

2) Do you feel you lived a full life if you died tomorrow?
Certainly not.
3) Do you believe in an afterlife?

Although not 100% certain, I prefer to believe in the Bodily Resurrection as prophesied in scripture. I don't see a reason to believe in an immortal immaterial soul. There is no need to complicate our conception of human consciousness by positing that it depends on anything other than the pattern of physical interactions in the brain. This pattern could be recreated in another medium (although doing so might require something close to omnipotence and omniscience), but could not exist without an active brain of some sort. Between now and Last Judgement, there is nothing to experience. The saints will be translated to incorruptible bodies in which to live forever, while unrepentant sinners will again cease to exist.

4) If you died tomorrow what would your biggest regret be?

Never having a real romantic relationship, or a job with which I could support myself. Not keeping in contact with a few friends, or reaching out to others.

5) If you had to guess, what age will you die?

91, based on the average age of my grandparents' at their deaths.

6) Have you ever seen someone die?

Yes.

I was in the room when my paternal grandfather's heart stopped, and when they took him off life support.

(I was a high school senior at the time. He was 91 and had been suffering from a bad case of pneumonia for a while. On his last day the doctors gave him an antibiotic that they think broke up bacteria in his heart so quickly that it caused a dangerously rapid loss of blood pressure. His last words were to declare that he had lived long enough already and just wanted the pain to stop.)


I was also in the room at the point when my cousin's eyes stopped responding to light, and when they declared him brain dead. I was, however, not around when they took him off of life support and let his heart and lungs stop.

(I was a sophomore in high school when this happened. He was a freshman, even though he was older than me, due to credits not transferring when his family moved around. While he was walking home from his high school a few days earlier, he was hit by an SUV driven by a fellow student. They thought he might recover until he had a seizure and fell out of his bed, landing on the the part of his head that had been most badly injured. He died about half a day later. His last words were "I want to go home," which my highly religious family members assumed referred to heaven rather than his house.)


I've also seen videos of real deaths. One I particularly remember is a video that a Kurdish girl from my high school brought to class one day. Before I knew what it was, I saw one of Saddam Hussein's soldiers use a knife to decapitate a man (who I think was a relative of that girl), starting with the throat instead of the spine so as to be more painful.

7) Do you think modern civilizations reduction of exposure to death is a good thing? (i.e., most people die in hospitals and not at home etc)

It depends on the circumstances. Fewer violent deaths is a good thing. It is not so good to keep people on life support when there is no real chance of recovery and the suffering is bad enough that the patient does not even want to live, particularly when tax money is being spent on this.

8) How do you want your body to be handled after death? (cremation, buried, etc)

I don't particularly care, but I do think that the common ways of dealing with dead bodies in western societies are hugely wasteful. Funeral homes tend to be big scams. I don't want the embalming chemicals, an expensive casket, etc. I don't want the air pollution from cremation either. I guess a Green Burial would be best, depending on the price. I'd rather be buried on my family's private property or in a park rather than in a commercially run graveyard. I don't have a problem with my corpse being donated to science, but I suspect a relative might want to have something to bury.

9) If you somehow knew that you were to die on a desert island and nobody would ever find your remains, would that bother you?

Nope.

10) If you had a memorial or tombstone with a message for the following generations, what would it say?

Probably some poem written in Latin, but I'm not sure what exactly.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But i just wanted to assault your untimely (and not supported by the previous part of the post) finishing segment

Assault?

Should I feel violated?

The 2 dimensions being agnostic - gnostic, and atheist - theist.

And indeed, it wasn't just supported by the preceding part, but what I got out of the entire discussion. It dawned on me ... why are we talking about atheists and theists when we were discussing agnosticism?

Also you stated:

So agnostic, atheist and religious, are three options (or categories) which already exist in the specific (despite that being conscious or not in an individual thinker) context that we only can know what by our nature we can know.

Which suggested to me you're seeing 3 options to chose from.

I'd be happy to be wrong on that account though. More than happy. Better than having the same old discussion again. Which I still will have though

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'm not so sure, because acknowledging ignorance is acknowledging something about your own condition, not about the condition of the external universe. If an afterlife exists, it exists regardless of what I think, and if it does not exists, it does not exist regardless of what I think. If that makes sense.

I can't disagree with that. However, my condition is the basis of the reasons I may have to assume the existence of something. And if knowledge is fundamentally always uncertain, then the reasons I have are always about probabilities (relative to some kind of established axioms about reality / some kind of general frame of reference, to be really precise about it). A very high probability means a good reason, a very low probability means a bad reason. But no reason would only be the case if the probability was zero.
So if we can say that the probability of an after life is not zero, because we can not rule it out, because it is a possibility, we can say that there is reason to assume an afterlife exists. However, we can also say that it is very unlikely that something merely exists because it is in principle possible.
So we have not no reason to assume that the afterlife exist, but only very weak or bad reason.

So if we are really strict and consistent about a the words we use, IMO "It's possible" and "there's no reason to think it exists" actually are mutually exclusive positions. Though if we settle with a practical rather than strict meaning of "no reason", no reason may just as well mean "no reason other than that we can not rule it out".

I am mostly arguing semantics and I feel like I may have to apologize for that, but well, there you have it.

 

[Farm Boy]

2 dimensions being agnostic - gnostic, and atheist - theist.

Well, dimensions are just a flawed human rendering of the scale man. Don't get so hung up on the equations.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man (boy)

But i also (still, sadly) do not agree with Ziggy that the agnostic-gnostic and the theist-atheist are in this context seperate (or better to be viewed as such) in ways akeen to two dimensions of an object. I do indeed think that atheist-agnostic-theist are (by and large) on a line of sorts, or at least i prefer to view them as in 1 dimension alterations, despite the obvious fact that they aren't there on their own but reflect myriads of other mental views and interconnections.

@MagisterCultuum: Sad to read about your cousin ending in that way... RIP.

 

[CavLancer]

This conversation would much different if we were all having it on our deathbeds.

 

[Leifmk]

This conversation would much different if we were all having it on our deathbeds.

Judging from the sample size I've observed it would be a lot less coherent. If you can even imagine such a thing.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

1) Do you fear death?
1a) Why do you fear death?

Depends. Dying? Not so much. Being dead? Yes.
Why? Because I will no longer be. There is so much interesting stuff in the future I will miss...

2) Do you feel you lived a full life if you died tomorrow?

No.

3) Do you believe in an afterlife?

No.

4) If you died tomorrow what would your biggest regret be?

That I had many assets that would have been of better use for other people, but I never used them.

5) If you had to guess, what age will you die?

60

6) Have you ever seen someone die?

Yes.

7) Do you think modern civilizations reduction of exposure to death is a good thing? (i.e., most people die in hospitals and not at home etc)

It depends. To marginalize death is certainly a big problem. On the other hand, medicine can make death a lot less painful. I have seen people suffer a lot in their final days.
I think you should leave it up to the dying person.

8) How do you want your body to be handled after death? (cremation, buried, etc)

Not sure. I guess cremation would be best because that has less impact on soil and groundwater than burial?

9) If you somehow knew that you were to die on a desert island and nobody would ever find your remains, would that bother you?

Yes.

10) If you had a memorial or tombstone with a message for the following generations, what would it say?

"Bedenkt unserer mit Nachsicht" ("Think upon us with leniency"), related to the Bertolt Brecht poem "An die Nachgeborenen" ("To those who follow in our wake").

 

[downtown]

1) I don't really fear my own death. To be honest, I don't think about it that often, since I'm young and pretty healthy. Me dying in the near future would be possible, but far less likely than all the other stuff I worry about.

I do fear other people dying. My mom is dying. Several of my family members have already died. I believe in an afterlife, but I fear being here without them.

2) Not quite. I haven't held my kid yet. For only being 27 though, I do feel like I've lived a pretty full and productive life. I still have a lot to accomplish and see though.

3) Yes.

4) That I've left my wife to raise our daughter alone.

5) Early 70s.

6) Yes.

7) To be honest, I haven't really thought about it before.

8) I don't care that much, to be honest. There would be something nice about being buried next to my old man, but if it made practical or financial sense for me to be cremated or something, I'm not going to haunt anybody over it.

9) Yeah. If I die, I want my family and friends to have that closure, and be absolutely sure I was dead.

 

[Farm Boy]

2) Not quite. I haven't held my kid yet. For only being 27 though, I do feel like I've lived a pretty full and productive life. I still have a lot to accomplish and see though.

If you're anything like me that will ring home exactly how much you aren't ready to leave yet. Kinda makes that line from The Patriot make sense. "I'm a parent. I haven't got the luxury of principles."

 

[warpus]

I'll give it a shot to convert you to agnosticism: No one was ever able to measure what happened after death so far scientific consensus is concerned. We are able to conceptualise an afterlife, yet there is no physical evidence to prove it does or doesn't exist, so that leaves both existence and non-existence open as a possibility.

I'm already an agnostic, so no need to convert me.

Your argument is flawed though, because I already admit that we have no reason to believe that the afterlife exists - I have said so much.

And just because we have no reason to believe something is true does not give credence to the idea that we have to consider it as a possibility. That's faulty reasoning. I mean, that's pretty much the opposite of what should be done.

By "Give me a reason to consider this as a possibility" I mean "Show me a reason why it might be true" and not "Show me that there is 0 data so that I can accept both possibilities as realistic ones". 0 data does not easily lead to realistic possibilities. 0 data tells you nothing and does not allow you to move from the default "probably does not exist" position.

edit: to give you an example of what I mean, say you wanted to convince me that "intelligent fluffy pillows exist on the moon" is something that should be considered as a viable possibility. The fact that we have never observed them does not mean at all that we should consider them as a possibility. It does the exact opposite, actually. To convince me that I should consider them as a possibility you'll have to show me *something*, not nothing. You're doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing if you want to convince me that this thing might be true.

But there's nothing, right? Until there's something my position has to be "I have no reason to believe that this thing might be true, but I will leave an open mind so that if anything comes up in the future I am able to consider it and perhaps change my mind". I don't see any alternative, unless you want me to be intellectually dishonest.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Although not 100% certain, I prefer to believe in the Bodily Resurrection as prophesied in scripture.

I dont know about resurrection the only rising I can see isnt from dead but from ignorance to knowledge. Could you post some passage from a scripture?

I don't see a reason to believe in an immortal immaterial soul.

1.What would be a purpose of such a creation? 2.Would it even be possible?

There is no need to complicate our conception of human consciousness by positing that it depends on anything other than the pattern of physical interactions in the brain.

I could tell you about thousand and one thing which in my opinion are too complicating but this is not world created for fulfilment of human consciousness but for its transcendence.... Besides if humans where just living machines as your reasoning suggests what point there would be for such a creation and what it would be saying about its creator - Mechanical God? There must be an escape from limitations of matter and place of an (absolute) freedom otherwise there is no Goal and no Game.

This pattern could be recreated in another medium (although doing so might require something close to omnipotence and omniscience), but could not exist without an active brain of some sort. Between now and Last Judgement, there is nothing to experience. The saints will be translated to incorruptible bodies in which to live forever, while unrepentant sinners will again cease to exist.

"Pattern of consciousness" exists with plants and possible in stone as well even though only in form close to inconscience and will exist yet again when evolution will make another giant step beyond humanity. Physical incorruptible body is possible only if every cell of the body shares consciously immortal consciousness. Again if you think that between currupted present and incorruptible future there is nothing to experience then you dont believe in evolutionary process which means you are denying bigger part of everyday reality... you can even deny that sinner can become good which is form of psychic evolution.

 

[Kyriakos]

One has to focus on the possibility of some beauty, even if pursued by the argument that so much uglyness would not even be needed without there being something to hide behind it.
Which is also an argument from the side of things one would be trying to get away from.

 

[CavLancer]

Judging from the sample size I've observed it would be a lot less coherent. If you can even imagine such a thing.

Guess you're right about that. I had in mind something along the lines of an old saying I can't recall right now. In a foxhole...something or other. I think everything would get a whole lot simpler. Not on deathbeds perhaps since many have already slipped the bonds of this world, ie totally lost it. In a situation where death is imminent and we were all about to directly experience that which we're discussing, but still have all our faculties, or at least the ones we come to this discussion with today.

Perhaps there wouldn't be much discussion at all, no wish to disturb thoughts upon our lives or the contemplations of those around us. I haven't a clue, but I think I'd want to think on those true people I've met in my life, and those I've shared love with. Might want to touch and smell and sense stuff fully as who knows what senses we'll have on the other side of death? It might be very quiet, or there could be a quiet group and a discussion group and then just a bunch of folks in denial everyone would wish away from their last minutes.

I think I would be quiet unless spoken to and then give as simple an answer as I could. A lot of clever debate points would seem rather silly. Egos and well worn paths which people have depended on for security would seem less meaningful or more as people either sought refuge in their delusions or felt free of them.

It would be different. Instead, I might go to sleep tonight and not wake up. Or you. From one seemingly random second to the next a natural or man made disaster could occur and end this existence. Recently went through a 7.2 quake with my family here on Bohol. I've said before that it wasn't like 'riding it out' which sounds like something one does on Magic Mountain. It was some thing else, and the difference is that on a ride one has a reasonable expectation of survival. In a strong quake its not like that. The absence of a reasonable expectation of survival changes reality, and that's what I meant about having this conversation on our deathbeds, not the incoherent blathering of those whose minds have left them.

 

[Mouthwash]

1) Do you fear death?

Very much so. I hope that they will create radical life-extension or mind-preservation within my lifetime.

1a) Why do you fear death?

Simple. Existence is all and everything I have. Being annihilated will negate it.

2) Do you feel you lived a full life if you died tomorrow?

Not even close.

3) Do you believe in an afterlife?

I think it's possible, perhaps even independent of religious explanation, but not likely.

4) If you died tomorrow what would your biggest regret be?

Not accomplishing anything?

5) If you had to guess, what age will you die?

I don't intend to die.

6) Have you ever seen someone die?

No.

7) Do you think modern civilizations reduction of exposure to death is a good thing? (i.e., most people die in hospitals and not at home etc)

No. It prevents people from seeing, face-to-face, their tragedy, and motivating them to put an end to it.

8) How do you want your body to be handled after death? (cremation, buried, etc)

I dunno. I might get it buried in accordance with Jewish custom (with the exception of the head, which would be placed in cryogenic suspension for later revival under controlled conditions).

9) If you somehow knew that you were to die on a desert island and nobody would ever find your remains, would that bother you?

I guess. Why wouldn't that bother me?

10) If you had a memorial or tombstone with a message for the following generations, what would it say?

Don't let what happened to me happen to you.

As a side note, I think it would be interesting being murdered. I'd kind of want to sit down and talk for a few hours to the person who was going to kill me. Get to know him, why he chose to kill me, all that business. Maybe end up good friends by the end of the night. Shake his hand before he took my life.

 

[El_Machinae]

Very much so. I hope that they will create radical life-extension or mind-preservation within my lifetime.

This is why I mentioned my loved ones. I think we should push for this tech before my parents die. Er, our parents. Or, really, saving my parents would likely help save your parents, and vis versa