Libya: Seriously, where is this going?

[Camikaze]

The EU doesn't necessarily have to be contiguous. After all, this is part of the EU.

 

[Winner]

Protection from Russia and Turkey via alliance with EU, though NATO would do the same.

Nato is a military alliance, which is become less relevant with every passing year. EU is more about other other things.

I had to look up Georgia on Google maps to determine that it is where I thought it was. How is it feasible for Georgia to join the EU without Turkey joining first?

The EU doesn't necessarily have to be contiguous. After all, this is part of the EU.

What Camikaze said. Georgia's membership depends more on how successful it becomes in modernizing itself. It will also have to sort out its border issues, because the last thing the EU wants is to get involved in the Caucasian ethnic squabbles.

 

[Thedrin]

Camikaze:
The EU doesn't necessarily have to be contiguous. After all, this is part of the EU.

I understand that. Afterall, Greece used to be rather isolated. But thanks to the Mediteranean there was easy trade between Greece and the southern EU. But trade through the Black Sea is more vulnerable to the whims of Turkey and Russia. In the event that relations between Russia and the EU deteriorate, a route through Turkey is required to prevent Georgia being a strategic liability.

 

[Winner]

I understand that. Afterall, Greece used to be rather isolated. But thanks to the Mediteranean there was easy trade between Greece and the southern EU. But trade through the Black Sea is more vulnerable to the whims of Turkey and Russia. In the event that relations between Russia and the EU deteriorate, a route through Turkey is required to prevent Georgia being a strategic liability.

EU doesn't really think in these terms.

Plus, if relations with Russia deteriorate to the point where it starts blockading international trade in the Black Sea, Europe will have other things to worry about than Georgia.

 

[RedRalph]

I think Georgia will join, eventually (it will take a long, long time), and Armenia might follow (what else is there for them? Turkey? Riiiight, let's let them finish the job, huh? Iran? No, thanks. Azerbaijan? When hell freezes over. Russia? Well, if Georgia is in the EU, then it won't be of much help.) Azerbaijan is probably too Muslim and too Turkic to be even a hypothetical candidate.



Georgia has made a stunning progress that was sadly interrupted by the Russian invasion. But it's getting better again. Saakashvilli will just have to recognize one day that even though the early modernization phase may have required a strong-handed leader (really, it's much simpler to do reforms in an enlightened semi-authoritarian system), he can't become a president for life. If he plans to suppress the democratic opposition forever, he'll undermining the key thing a modern country requires to prosper and develop into a true liberal democracy.

Doubt Georgia will make it in. They would have to accept the independence of S. Osettia and Abkhazia, and even then, I dont think the EU wants a border with Russian north Cacasus. It's still a warzone in many ways. Letting them in just wouldn't be worth the hassle.

 

[Tahuti]

Protection from Russia and Turkey via alliance with EU, though NATO would do the same.

First of all, Armenia doesn't need any "protection" from Russia, since Armenia fairly cozy with Russia in the first place and is part of the CSTO (a bit like NATO, but with Russia as its leader). Secondly, since Turkey is part of the NATO, I doubt Armenian politicians would be able to sell it to their constituents to have Armenia in any military alliance alongside Turkey.

 

[RedRalph]

First of all, Armenia doesn't need any "protection" from Russia, since Armenia fairly cozy with Russia in the first place and is part of the CSTO (a bit like NATO, but with Russia as its leader). Secondly, since Turkey is part of the NATO, I doubt Armenian politicians would be able to sell it to their constituents to have Armenia in any military alliance alongside Turkey.

Yes in fact, there is probably no country on Earth who is more friendly to Russian than Armenia (bar Abkhazia and South Ossetia). It's funny when people can't understand that not everyone sees things the same as the US State Dept.

 

[Winner]

Well, it is largely an alliance of convenience. Armenia is basically surrounded by states that are either openly hostile to it or are held in deep mistrust by Armenian people (not that I blame them; if someone exterminated a significant portion of my countrymen and refused to even bloody acknowledge that a century after the event, much less to apologize, I'd be deeply mistrustful too). Russia is its only guarantee that Azerbaijan doesn't crush it.

 

[IglooDame]

Meanwhile, in Libya:

"The opposition said it has cut off fuel supplies to the regime's stronghold of Tripoli. A rebel field commander in Zawiya, says the fighting has shut down an oil pipeline to the capital, where a third of Libya's six million people live. The rebels have surrounded the refinery."

 

[kochman]

First of all, Armenia doesn't need any "protection" from Russia, since Armenia fairly cozy with Russia in the first place and is part of the CSTO (a bit like NATO, but with Russia as its leader). Secondly, since Turkey is part of the NATO, I doubt Armenian politicians would be able to sell it to their constituents to have Armenia in any military alliance alongside Turkey.

1)
I guess you trust Russia a bit more than I do... they get active here and there with their neighbors/allies.

2)
Greece is in NATO alongside Turkey...
Poland is in NATO alongside Germany...
France...
Why could Armenia not be?

3)
The question/answer was regarding the EU, I just threw in NATO for an additional idea.

 

[kochman]

I had to look up Georgia on Google maps to determine that it is where I thought it was. How is it feasible for Georgia to join the EU without Turkey joining first?

Because Georgia is part of Europe proper, whereas Turkey only has the tiny sliver of land in Europe, the rest being in "Asia Minor"?

 

[Tee Kay]

Because Georgia is part of Europe proper, whereas Turkey only has the tiny sliver of land in Europe, the rest being in "Asia Minor"?

And you fail geography.

 

[kochman]

And you fail geography.

I guess that is up for debate (I know I personally think Wikipedia is not a good source for much at all):
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm
Thanks for playing.

 

[Tee Kay]

I guess that is up for debate (I know I personally think Wikipedia is not a good source for much at all):
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm
Thanks for playing.

Well, then, Azerbaijan should have no trouble getting into the EU! It's fully European!

Put ten people together in a room and you will have trouble finding a common definition of "Europe", just like how no one can agree on the definition of "Middle East", or "Eastern Europe" (eg Poland). The Wikipedia definition is the same definition as the one National Geographics use. The United Nations place Azerbaijan, Turkey, Cyprus and Georgia in Western Asia, though all of them are members of the Council of Europe, which by its own criterion only includes European states. To the Ancient Greeks, who came up with this "continents" crap in the first place, Europe ends at the Rioni partway into Georgia, but the Ancient Romans and medieval Europeans thought Europe ends at the Don River.

Anyway, this:

Because Georgia is part of Europe proper, whereas Turkey only has the tiny sliver of land in Europe, the rest being in "Asia Minor"?

Is not objective geography or even widely accepted, and certainly not a solid geographical basis for the inclusion of Georgia in European organisations and the exclusion of Turkey.

 

[Shadowbound]

Right now, Turkey is much closer to joining the EU than Georgia is. They're aiming for 2013, the EU is talking about 2021, and there's no chance Georgia will resolve any of the massive issues standing in the way before then.

 

[kochman]

Is not objective geography or even widely accepted, and certainly not a solid geographical basis for the inclusion of Georgia in European organisations and the exclusion of Turkey.

I guess we both have our own opinions on this.
If Turkey was still a part of "Greece", I am sure it would be fully considered Europe...
I don't accept Asia Minor, personally, with the dividing line being the mountain range (which admittedly also spills heavily into NE Turkey).

 

[kochman]

Right now, Turkey is much closer to joining the EU than Georgia is. They're aiming for 2013, the EU is talking about 2021, and there's no chance Georgia will resolve any of the massive issues standing in the way before then.

The whole Cyprus issue isn't going away though...

 

[Shadowbound]

It'd be easier to solve than Ossetia and South Abkhazia.

 

[brennan]

Meanwhile, in Libya:

I don't think anyone got the hint...

 

[RedRalph]

Well, it is largely an alliance of convenience. Armenia is basically surrounded by states that are either openly hostile to it or are held in deep mistrust by Armenian people (not that I blame them; if someone exterminated a significant portion of my countrymen and refused to even bloody acknowledge that a century after the event, much less to apologize, I'd be deeply mistrustful too). Russia is its only guarantee that Azerbaijan doesn't crush it.

Every alliance is an alliance of convenience, but I think this is a genuinely close one. I know it can be very, very hard for some people to imagine but for a lot of countries Russia is not the evil bogeyman. I think Armenia has a slight military edge over Azerbaijan BTW, but I'm open to being corrected.