LK149 - WM, Indonesia

India on the islands makes those such a mess...
Even our homeland is polluted with that one Indian city.

I think we want some more settlers on standby.

Another item we should keep working on. Keep the islands with a couple of high quality troops for defense, and keep shuffling all those regular swords to SE Asia.
 
Unfortunately I played most of the round before LK posted his later suggestions (I mean post 99 as well as 101). But I did conduct our operations with an eye towards a coming war with India, so that we built some attack units, constructed a barracks in Bekasi, reinforced isolated islands, etc. I also added to our worker force on New Guinea. I didn’t pick up the elite swordsman from New Guinea, and that’s still a good idea.
 
500 (0): I understand the infra drive, and for the most part I'll stick with it. But lack of garrison units is just killing us, both actually, with towns at negative food, and potentially, since landings on Borneo will end the game if we get into another war soon. So I make some changes to allow us a bit of unit production during this round, and to let us resume pumping out workers for merging.

Bandung courthouse --> aqueduct, Bekasi barracks --> harbour, Semarang temple --> aqueduct.

Jakarta worker --> worker, and so on every turn for the rest of the round.


510 (1): The Zulus show up with Gunpowder, but since we can't afford to start a twofer with either Education or Gunpowder, it doesn't help us.

Djokjakarta courthouse --> barracks.


520 (2): All our rivals except those who seem completely out of the tech race now have Gunpowder and Education. It doesn't look good.

Surabaya cathedral --> maceman.


530 (3): We can now--just, painfully--afford one of Gunpowder or Education, but with no twofer on the table there's no rush.

We merge Surabaya up to size twelve with three workers.

We're informed that the Argentines have wiped out the Brazilians, so that's two New World civs gone without our involvement.

Palembang knight --> longbowman.

The Sioux are working on Shakespeare, so they've shot through Democracy and have Free Artistry.


540 (4): We get reinforcements to Batam and (next turn) Bogor.

We yield to a Babylonian demand for 48 gold.

Bekasi harbour --> knight.


550 (5): The Babylonians go to war against India--not as good as an India-China war, but useful.

Surabaya maceman --> maceman, Medan marketplace --> spearman, Djokjakarta barracks --> spearman, Makassar aqueduct --> marketplace.

The Persians land three settlers, each with a covering unit, in our lands, and a fourth in India's enclave on our home island. Since AI units covering settlers don't usually do anything very dangerous, we just shift units around appropriately and await developments.


560 (6): We merge two workers into Medan.

Palembang longbowman --> knight.

The Persian settler teams just fortify in place, so we remain at peace with Xerxes. However, our silks deal with the Persians is suddenly over, though it had five turns left to run. Strange. :confused:


570 (7): We restore our third luxury by sending 19 gpt to the Aztecs for incense. If we decide we can't afford to pay for three luxuries we can just let our Zulu wines deal lapse in four turns.

We merge two workers into Palembang, bringing the city up to 18 spt for efficient four-turn knight production.

Medan spearman --> spearman, Djokjakarta spearman --> spearman.


580 (8): We merge two workers into Makassar.

We have to yield to two demands--for 74 gold and our TM from the Sioux, and for 69 gold and our TM from the Mongols. :mad:

Surabaya maceman --> knight, Tangerang marketplace --> courthouse.


590 (9): We merge a third worker into Makassar.

The Sioux declare war on the Americans.

Medan spearman --> spearman, Djokjakarta spearman --> spearman, Malang harbour --> aqueduct.


600 (10): At last a break in the tech picture, as the Songhai have Gunpowder. We buy Education from the Mongols for 88 gpt, 1188 gold, and our WM, then send it to the Songhai along with 42 gpt for Gunpowder.

Predictably, given the territory under our control, we don't have saltpetre.

There are many more useful asymmetries in the tech pattern we can see now--basically Astronomy, Banking, and Chemistry--but of course we can't afford to do anything about them.
 
Our Persian guests (around Palembang):

 
We should try to take (really raze and replace) Kolhapur from the Indians while they're distracted by their Babylonian war, thus gaining our own supply of iron. It would be an ugly war of 4-4 attacks, but if we're able to accumulate about fifteen attack units in Bekasi (we have ten now), we should be able to take Kolhapur at least. We wouldn't have to build all of the extra units needed--some already exist and can just be moved in--and we could be ready to strike towards the end of the next round. We’d probably want more settlers than the one now in Bekasi, though.

If the team is interested in this idea (as we clearly are :evil:), the first step would be to investigate Kolhapur (90 gold) and learn the size of the garrison. If it’s small—quite possible when the Indians are fighting a war at the other end of Asia in a republic—we can move up the schedule proposed above.

The Indians only have 25 gold, so the threat of their buying other civs in against us probably wouldn't arise, though LK is the expert on that issue in this mod.

We’ll need to get our swordsman presently mapping India off Indian territory before we attack so that it doesn’t count as a RoP-rape.

This decision will have an impact on our builds. If we're not going to hit India soon, we can emphasize knights for the cheap upgrade to cav later. If we are going to attack, probably with heavy losses, we'll need maceman and longbowmen more.

We can trade Gunpowder to France for Printing Press, but I'd rather keep even a tiny chance of eventually trading it for something useful.

After Padang completes its aqueduct this interturn and reaches size seven by natural growth in three turns, the two workers desgnated Merge Into Padang (one presently in a galley) should be joined to the city.

The workers in the jungle outside Palembang can be ferried over to the mainland in the next couple of turns. Palembang already has twelve improved land tiles, so clearing the jungle would be wasted effort.

We're still producing spearmen in the ongoing effort to free some of our better units from garrison duty. It would be fine to build another couple of galleys to get the knights, macemen, etc. thus released to the mainland. We might want to add a third unit each to the garrisons of Bogor and Batam, especially if we're going to go to war with India.
 
Summary:
I have no idea how we could afford that many worker merges.
Our happiness was already horrid at the end of my round. Some of it was because I temp striped our homeland cities to kill the landings, but I am baffled how we can afford so many. My only guess looking at the picture is some of the cathedrals finished and we got those towns to higher size. I do notice we are stuck with 10% luxuries again. :(

The timing of the war with India is tricky.
We also want to be in the position to at defend Bogor strongly with two annoying Indian cities nearby.
In addition, I want to raze Punjab and replace it with our own cities during the first Indian war. I know the Indian culture is strong as I needed to build a temple in Palembang to recover 2 of our second ring tiles. That city is close enough to mainland India that it would be easily seen as a target for troops from the homeland.
I'd really like to rescue the elite sword from the island with Malang before the war. Every world map game starts to break open once we have armies.

Glad we finally got two new techs, but it sounds like we are starting to fall behind the AIs now. Since we haven't built any libraries I know we still aren't in a position to look at self-research. I really hope when we go to war with India that we can extort something in the peace treaty. I don't see use eliminating him in the first war. I see war number one as primarily a way for use to get self-reliant with iron.

ROSTER:
LKendter
Northern Pike (just played)
Greebley (up)
Elephantium (on deck)
 
The worker merges were possible mostly because we have more units in those towns for MP duty now. Since we were dangerously vulnerable with one-unit garrisons all over the map, I felt that approach was win-win.

It's just as well we're agreed it's time to strike the Indians, because our iron deal with them is about to expire and I don't think we can afford to renew it. It's not a disaster in terms of our buildup for the war, since we'll be able to keep two or possibly three of the knight builds we have going now, and after that we can build longbowmen.

As long as we have a galley in Depok when we go to war with India, we can drop units from its garrison into Bogor at any time. That, along with the fact that Bogor is a hill town, should keep Bogor fairly safe.

I agree that it's getting harder and harder for us to keep afloat in tech, and that our first war with India may be a limited one. But pointy-stick research after the AA generally yields miserable results, unless this mod is different in that regard. To me, that's perhaps the biggest flaw in Civ III that was never fixed--that the amount of tech an AI civ will give up to survive doesn't scale as techs get more expensive. We'll just have to hope that once we start winning wars our position will gradually improve in all aspects, as usual.
 
It's just as well we're agreed it's time to strike the Indians, because our iron deal with them is about to expire and I don't think we can afford to renew it. It's not a disaster in terms of our buildup for the war, since we'll be able to keep two or possibly three of the knight builds we have going now, and after that we can build longbowmen.
Don't forget about buckets. A few of those can't hurt.

The bad news is I didn't see saltpeter in Indian lands. Not to mention a luxury source. One cluster of luxuries will really help us. I knew luxuries were going to be Indonesia's weakness with no natural sources. I was disappointed that SE Asia had none. :(
 
Preturn: Looks good.
India is one of the weakest 3 on the power chart which is good for us. We are still weak compared to them, but not by much.
I think Kholapar will fall with what we have now.
As stated we are in Indian land, so next turn is when I can first decide if war is reasonable.

IBT: Magellan Completed by Aztec. Some switching to the non-built wonders JSB and Shakespeare

610 AD: Situation is no great we have 150 gold but are now at -33 gpt and lost a Luxury. We can trade for printing press or 4 gold. Nothing better.
India won't declare on us, so I declare war after moving our unit out. Lets see how it works out. I think we look strong enough.

IBT: Single archer is seen near one of our island towns.

620 AD: Move next to two cities with our troops: Kholapur and Punjab

IBT: Win sword vs MDI on hill. Lose a Sword on a Hill to an Elephant. A boat is attacked and sunk.

630 AD: Cat and Trebs near Kholpur nock the Muskets to 2 and 3 hp with 2 hits. There is a 3rd Musket. We lose one MDI and capture Kholpur. We also lose 1 MDI vs Punjab on our home island. I make sure to cover the Iron with a unit so it can't be pillaged. I don't abandon Kholpur yet but with 7 resisters and them taking the Iron back, there is a good chance I will use the settler to replace it. We are at 79 gold and losing 33. Germany got Gunpowder first, get 10 gold via trading and maps. We switch away from building units to lower costs.
Started the FP in our biggest town. That might switch.

IBT: A sword on a mountain is attacked and we win.

640 AD: Selling improvements in Kholpur is worth around 100 gold. This means we can keep from going bankrupt for 5 or so turns. Abandon Kholpur saving Iron from flips, build Denispar.

IBT: Sword in Indian mountains kills one MDI before dying. They are 3-4 turns away from us.

650 AD: Merge 6 Workers into Denspar gaining us about 15 gpt. One more merge and other adjustments puts us to 128 gold and -8 gpt.

Notes:
I have had the game long enough so I am giving it up after only 5. Would have liked to keep it 10 to allow next player to advance rather than have to defend, but things are currently fairly busy.

Declaring war was nearly necessary. We were in dire financial position with us losing a lot of gpt at once and absolutely no trades of worth. Taking the city, selling the improvements, building Markets, and building up Denispar has put us in a position that I think we can afford the gold until the gpt we spent for for education and gunpowder run out.

It just occurred to me now that our Bankha are very valuable. If one wins a boat battle, we would have a golden age right? Using trebs to knock a enemy craft to 1 hp and using the Banka would be a good chance of getting it. We could time it with one of our wars or a need for high gold for tech. Lets keep them safe and not upgrade.

Bogor needs units. Make sure you move the boat near Depok toward Bogor. It has a MDI and another Sword. An Elephant showed up in the town on the same island which I expect will kill one of our two Spears. More units are needed around there to clear out the island, the two on the Depok boat may be vital to killing that elephant.
Going into Indian terrain is dangerous. There is decent sized stack of Elephants out there that should arrive in around 3-4 turns - I saw around 6. We could likely make peace by then if we have to - if the stack looks too big - my hope though is we can take them out with what we have to eventually advance. We want to be positive money so let the Markets (including capitol) complete in case we need to make peace. If we need more cash worker merges saves us the unit cost and increases gold so is likely the best way.

I would check the MM of the cities and for deals (unlikely unless we want to sell our Iron or someone new gets map making). I had a pretty bad headache when I finished up and could have made mistakes. There was one civ lacking Edu and Gunpowder we might someday have a chance with.

If we get far enough behind so there are no possibler 2-fers, we are better off researching ourselves and will want libraries if we can get them.

 
Great call starting the Indian war immediately. :thumbsup:

You raise a good point about Bangkas and our Golden Age--can LK confirm that we can trigger our GA that way? If so, we really only have one Bangka left--the other is in the Arctic--and we have to be very careful with it.

I understand the desire to have a marketplace in Jakarta in this financial position, but OTOH we can't achieve anything more against India without settlers, and they can't sensibly come from anywhere else. I'd change that build to a series of settlers and let the market wait a while.

Denpasar doesn't need walls when we've already merged it up to size seven, so we can change that build to a barracks.

The workers fortified in Semarang can come out and work, now that it's safe.
 
Summary:
WOW, not what I was expecting. When I said a war with India, I was not thinking immediately.

It looks like we kept the Indian city on our islands. Can we please starve it down to size one? I want to get that flip risk down. Since we kept, I would like to get a culture building of ours in the city.

With the war going any chance we can raze those two annoying cities on the island with Bogor?

We should hopefully trip a GA with our Bankga. To be honest, I have no idea if I thought about that. I'm getting ready for work and don't have the time to check right now.

I agree with NP that our capital needs to build settlers. This early we don't have the cultural rating to handle keeping a lot of cities. Especially on mainland Asia, I feel we need to raze and replace all for the moment. I would have preferred to raze and replace the Indian city on our main island.


ROSTER:
LKendter (on deck)
Northern Pike
Greebley (just played)
Elephantium (up)
 
I really clustered on Indonesia. I forget to set starts GA on the Bankga. We will have to eventually build wonders to get our GA.
 
Starve Punjab, build culture
raze Bogor's neighbors

Pre-turn: Change capital to a Settler build. Change Denpasar from Walls to Barracks.
Semarang's Workers come out to play.
Palembang changes a clown to a taxman

IBT - war elephants suicide on our Spear near Bogor :D
Sonhai declares on the Sioux!
Jakarta - Settlers
Punjab flips; we lose a 2/4 Longbow in the process.

Turn 1 - I get a little too enthusiastic and lose a Knight and a Sword against Punjab. It'll be another couple of turns before I can try again :(
Sioux are Industrial now.

IBT - India wants straight-up peace, but they're not willing to pay for it...yet...
Bandung - Duct > MDI
Denpasar riots :blush:
Bekasi: Treb > MDI
Medan riots :blush:
So does Palembang
I have GOT to quit moving troops out of cities! I'm really sorry guys.
Sioux complete JS Bach

Turn 2 -
America lacks Astro, and Argentina lacks Chemistry. Unfortunately, we can't afford to buy either tech :(

IBT -
Depok - Court > Galley

Turn 3 -
Lose MDI, LB, and Sword to Ganges :wallbash:

On the bright side, we're positive gpt now :rolleyes:

IBT - Indian LB wins flawless victory against our Spear next to Punjab :(
Zulu demand Territory map.
American Peace Treaty comes up for renewal :confused:
Jakarta - Settlers
Tangerang - Court > MDI

Turn 4 - Lose Sword in Batam trying to take out invading Indian LB

IBT - Punjab LB scores another flawless victory on our Spear :cry:
Medan - Knights
Palembang - Market > Spear

Goodbye Ivory.

Turn 5 - This turnset has been a disaster. I'm going to hand it off now.
 
Once you get your first riot please zoom into the city. From there you can scroll forward and avoid any more that turn. We should never suffer multiple riots during the same turn.

Please *RAZE* Punjab this time.


If NP can play quickly, we can swap. Getting any play time in this weekend will be tough.

ROSTER:
LKendter (up)
Northern Pike (on deck)
Greebley (just played)
Elephantium
 
This turnset has been a disaster.


The decision to attack India immediately was absolutely correct, but it did leave us unprepared in some ways, with no settler available to replace Punjab and an inadequate force for any attack on Ganges.

LK, thanks for the clarification regarding Bangkas and our GA. At least this means we didn't make a gross error in upgrading most of them.

I've got it.
 
We will have to agree to disagree on the timing of India attack. I wanted Bogor reinforced and some spare settlers before it happened. That flip was a major set back. We aren't strong enough to handles many set backs at this point.

We also weren't ready to clear those stupid India island cities out.
 
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