LK86 - Two great variant in one. RaR and AWM.

[meldor]

Lee is correct, it is learning Dyna that gives Pioneers, not the Gov we're in.
Siam is pathetic. But that doesn't necessarily mean all AIs are so weak; if the Viking do better...with our coastline...it won't be that easy.

I turned science down because the tech was due in 1 and that is all that was required to get it. Science was moved back up the next turn to get the next tech asap. The change to Pioneer didn't cost any turns of delay in building the unit for the one building in the capital.

We are religious.

I know but the delay of the pioneer delays the building of the city by 2 turns and the city can gain the population back during anarchy. Also we were researching The Wheel which we got in three turns prior to the revolt. The extra 10% science rate wouldn't have helped until we started Bronze Working. The result is that the city gets built faster and the population in the capital recovers during the switch. I think it is a better play.

 

[LKendter]

city can gain the population back during anarchy.

A very good point. If no happy problems we can max food during that period.

 

[LKendter]

I am pleased to look at the map and see coffee as another longer-term luxury to connect.


975 BC
I immediately start recalling our ranger. IMO he has already explored way to far.


950 BC
Kufah is formed at the grey dot location to secure silks.

I get to kill a Siam unit, but no slave or leader. (1-0).
(IT) Fermentation is only 2 turns, so I sidetrack to it. I would hate to not be aware of the wines luxury.


925 BC
(IT) I squeeze a shrine into the capitol to help with happiness.


900 BC
I upgrade a guardsman to spearman. Unlike C3C AW, we will have excess cash. With a pop-rush government the best us of cash is unit upgrades.
(IT) The sideshow is over for science. I start on Iron Working to head us toward barracks.

875 BC
A Siam raft is along our borders. Since it can carry a troop I need to watch it carefully.


750 BC
It isn't the best pop-rush with just 12 shields, but I still rush the shrine in Kufah. It saves 12 turns on getting the silks on-line.

The current research is Aristocracy heading toward Military Training. The all important barracks are close.





Summary:
@ALL - slaves upgrade to worker for $27. A slave works at 1/2 the speed of a worker. This is a great way to use up our extra cash.

Armies aren't as powerful in RaR. I would prefer leaders to rushes expensive small wonders. There are a lot of good ones.

The settler is heading toward the red dot city mainly to avoid longer borders. I suggest the next settler head to the green dot for cereal and coffee.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK86-750BC.zip

 

[Greebley]

Meldor, The reason we shouldn't always turn down science is due to a bug in Civ with rate caps. If you had 30% lux then you can turn it down to 20%. If you have less then you are getting more than 50% in gold which circumvents the intent of the rate cap (since our current cap is 50%). The worst exploitive case is when you lower science every round to earn more gold than you would normally get. The rate will readjust itself every turn, but after you get the gold.


In other games I have played, turning down science to put gold over the rate cap was disallowed, since the intent is for commerce to be capped too.

Lee, maybe we should state an explict rule on the rate cap.

Thanks for the clarification on Dyna. When I think about it you are of course correct. It is gaining techs that give you new units.

 

[LKendter]

I am confused on the rate cap comment. If I lower science the last turn do I get extra gold and extra science? Is it simply extra gold in replace of science?

 

[Timko]

Meldor, The reason we shouldn't always turn down science is due to a bug in Civ with rate caps. If you had 30% lux then you can turn it down to 20%. If you have less then you are getting more than 50% in gold which circumvents the intent of the rate cap (since our current cap is 50%). The worst exploitive case is when you lower science every round to earn more gold than you would normally get. The rate will readjust itself every turn, but after you get the gold.


In other games I have played, turning down science to put gold over the rate cap was disallowed, since the intent is for commerce to be capped too.

Lee, maybe we should state an explict rule on the rate cap.

Thanks for the clarification on Dyna. When I think about it you are of course correct. It is gaining techs that give you new units.

So as I understand it the intent was that neither science nor commerce should be allowed to go over the rate cap, but the game doesn't stop you. In that case would it be best to turn science down the turn before a tech is discovered and put the extra into happiness - just in case any clowns can be put to work for a round, and for a little extra score?
\relurk

 

[microbe]

I don't understand this. What does the cap do? I thought it means a MAX cap, not a MIN cap.

In any case, as long as we do not do so intentionally every turn, turning down sci at the last turn should be allowed. It's just too tedious otherwise to make up for the game bug.

What does AI do?

 

[Greebley]

How is it tedious? Usually, I solve this by not turning science down at all. Sure you can dump it into lux or partially turn it down, but given that we are not going to be short of money, I just let it over-run.

Even if you do want to reduce it, it is not hard to subtract you science rate and Lux rate to figure out what your commerce is. For me at least if i have science at 30% and lux at 10%, knowing that commerse is 60% is instantaneous. I do much more complex MM'ing than doing that calculation every turn.

When we get a better government, with a better cap then we can play reduce it.

 

[LKendter]

When we get a better government, with a better cap then we can play reduce it.

We already have Monarchy and a better government. Are you talking about a Middle Ages government?


I still don't understand the rate cap issue. If it is a rate cap of 50% what is the issue with turning it down the last turn?

 

[Greebley]

The rate cap applies to gold as well as science and luxury. If you lowered science and luxury to 0, then the game will adjust the sliders to obey the rate cap.

The problem is that it does this after you have already gotten the higher amount of gold. This is the bug (the fact it gives you the higher gold)

So you can completely circumvent the rate cap on the incoming gold by adjusting science and luxury to 0 every turn.

Doc originally explained this to me and knows most about it.

 

[microbe]

Could someone confirm that AI obey the rate cap as well (i.e., they do not turn down the sci rate at the last turn)? Maybe investigate a few AI cities for a test.

 

[microbe]

The rate cap applies to gold as well as science and luxury. If you lowered science and luxury to 0, then the game will adjust the sliders to obey the rate cap.

The problem is that it does this after you have already gotten the higher amount of gold. This is the bug (the fact it gives you the higher gold)

So you can completely circumvent the rate cap on the incoming gold by adjusting science and luxury to 0 every turn.

As I said, as long as we don't intentionally exploit this bug (do it every turn), it should be allowed.

Sure, the game will give you both gold and sci, but the added sci isn't giving you anything anyway, as it's the last turn already.

So I don't think it makes sense to force ourselves to waste beakers. As far as I am concerned, the bug doesn't matter.

 

[LKendter]

As far as I am concerned, the bug doesn't matter.

At the moment I am doing nothing about this "bug" until I hear Docs comments as he explained to Greebley.

I haven't decided either way how to rule on this.

 

[meldor]

1) I assumed that the rate cap dealt with science only. It sounds like income is capped as well? What about lux?? That would mean that we might as well keep lux and science at a total of 50% minimum no matter what. Since this Mod doesn't allow WTL(x)D on small cities, it will be wasted on all except those not connected to the road net.

2) It is standard practice in any SG to turn science down on the last turn of research to get the gold for beakers exchange. I was unaware of any bug that would cause an issue with this. Now that the cap rate is 60%, can we not now turn science down as long as the total of Science and Lux doesn't drop below 40%? This also means that instead of researching at max early on, it might be better to research at less than max and get the gold sooner rather than in the last turn. Say, turn it down when theere are 2 turns left so that you drop science to 30% rather than 20% on the last turn. You still get the tech in the same turn (assuming you MM the beakers right), and you don't violate the 50% income cap. Seems to just add one more thing to keep track of in an already heavy game.

Thoughts?

 

[grs]

The rate cap deals with all 3 values. You can see it, since the game adjust the values on the next turn, it just does it too late.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Try to set Lux or Science above 50% in Chiefdom, and you'll see it isn't possible. But, as Greebley explained, if you turn both down, Tax will exceed the 50%.
The AI cannot do that; they will always stick to the rules. This was a DyP feature since ever, so we know it pretty well.
The bug is that the game checks for the cap after commerce is distributed, and resets it too late.
'Respect the Rate Cap' is a houserulle for my games.
And, it doesn't really give you much gp anyway if you only turn it down the last turn before a tech is researched. How big is our total income, 10got?

Oh, and I would be careful with burning too much cash. Due to all the (necessary) city improvements, maintenance will go up pretty soon. Add the unit support, and we can be in trouble soon. I'm currently playing an RaR AWE, and I cannot afford more than 20-30% research for most of the time in Monarchy...
Useful upgrades like TGs to Spears is worth spending money, but upgrading many Slaves is not the best idea...better get more of them .

Speaking about Govs: Republic, or Monarchy until we get Absolute Monarchy? Republic has the trade bonus, but WW will be pretty ugly...

And, there is one wonder we should get by all means: The Sphinx (Sun Tzu's equivalent).

 

[LKendter]

I certainly won't argue with move slaves. However, for the moment Siam isn't giving us much of an option. With how few we have at the moment I want to maximize their usefulness. By upgrading to worker I think we also get the next of labor upgrade for free. The money spent gets us 2 levels of worker improvements. I would agree not to upgrade if we start drowning in them. For now I prefer to spend some cash to avoid having to eat up our population for workers.


WW and AW is a very ugly combination. I will stick with Monarchy until a better WW free government is available.


More questions on the rate cap issue. If we can't afford the 60% max science and drop back to 50% does this trip the issue? I really don't understand the whole rate cap concept. Is it science rate locked at a certain percentage?

 

[microbe]

And, it doesn't really give you much gp anyway if you only turn it down the last turn before a tech is researched. How big is our total income, 10got?

That's not an argument. No matter how little it is, if it's our legitimate income we shouldn't throw it away. We do this all the time when cap is 100%. Is 100% much different from other numbers?

It's not just chieftom, is it? Does the bug hit also Monarchy, for example?

If it's chieftom specific, I've no problem with throwing away gold, but if it's also for all other caps, then I really don't like the sacrifice.

Why? Because the recalculated/added science does nothing for us. It's already last turn.

The AI cannot do that; they will always stick to the rules.

I still don't get it.
1. Do you mean AI never lower sci rate for the last turn of researching a tech?
2. What rules exactly? Is this cap a max cap or a min cap? I think it's a max cap, and the rule doesn't say you have to keep that cap. As Lee said if we cannot sustain the cap we have to lower it, and I believe AI does the same.

 

[LKendter]

Just so this doesn't get lost in the rate cap discussion.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.

 

[Greebley]

If our rate cap is 60%, then Science and Lux can be at most 60% (this is enforced). Science + Lux must be at least 40% (not well enforced).

So you can have
science at 10 and Lux at 30 is OK.
Science at 40 and Lux at 20 is OK.
Science at 50 and Lux at 50 is OK.
Science at 60 and Lux at 10 is OK.
Science at 0 and Lux at 40 is OK.

Science at 10 and Lux at 20 is not OK.
Science at 70 and Lux at 10 is not possible to set.
Science at 0 and Lux at 0 is not ok.

I don't feel very strongly for or against the rule, however, all RaR and DyP games I have seen have used it though. The rate cap is intended to be a limitation. You can put the extra in Lux if you want, but boosting the amount of gold over the cap isn't allowed.

Of course, this is a non-issue in normal C3C as there are no rate caps so I don't see how the argument "we always turn down science" applies. You can turn down science because there is no cap.