LK86 - Two great variant in one. RaR and AWM.

Greebley said:
The rate cap is intended to be a limitation.
Click to expand...

As I see it, the limitation is that "you cannot raise sci to higher than the cap value". It's a max limitation.

It says nothing as "you have to keep your sci rate AT this value, no more no less". Please correct me if I am wrong.

So I don't see why it's "intended" that way. It's intended to be a max limitation only (thus the name "cap").

Sure there is a bug, but it's a separate issue from the "intention". As long as we do not take advantage of it, we should be able to lower sci (such as last turn).

Of course, this is a non-issue in normal C3C as there are no rate caps so I don't see how the argument "we always turn down science" applies. You can turn down science because there is no cap.
Click to expand...

No cap == cap is 10.


I got it by the way.
 
Preturn: We seem to have a lot of nice land to settle, and where is Siam?

We can lower lux to 10.

Our capital has too much food. I MM to get granary in 3 turns, so we can switch to high shields.

710BC: Basra founed.

670BC: A Viking warrior shows up. He is up us 6 techs and down 2. We get Construction+Philosophy by Iron Working+Mathematics+35g. Sailing/Slavery are not monopoly and cheap, but they are dead end and we can get them later.

We then declare war.

We can mine now. We really need more shields.

Research Military Tradition in 6 turns.

610BC: I found Khurasan. It's mainly just connecting our territory to make it easier to defend.

I MM capital to have Acadamy in 5 turns.

570BC: the Siam raft finally lands a Otomo. Our Chariot wins by 1hp and gets a slave. :D

IBT we have silks online. This allows us to drop lux to 10.

550BC: Research to Civil Engineering in 4 turns. We'd better follow AI research path instead of researching at first place.

Note: we badly need to get shields up. Mine those hills and mountains at core. Get Medina up to speed.

Vikings might be in the north. We haven't built a lot of units. We can build Sphinx in about 15 turns in our capital. We probably should do so asap after pumping out some more units.
 
As I see it, the limitation is that "you cannot raise sci to higher than the cap value". It's a max limitation.
Click to expand...
No, the limitation as intended (and as it is already for the AI) is that "you cannot raise any of sci, lux and tax higher than the cap value". And of course it's a max limitation.
If it is too hard to calculate it for yourself, than simply look at the numbers in the status box in the bottom right corner ( "Arabs Chiefdom 5.5.0") - none of that may exceed the cap value ;).

For this one time, there are no speculations needed about what the designers had in mind :D.
We can either decide to ignore that (but then, it is an 'exploit' by definition), or stick to it. But we cannot pretend to not know how it is supposed to be.
But, as long as someone doesn't use it every turn, it has no big impact.
Still, for AW games without such a huge growth potential like our start, you sometimes cannot afford the unit support in Chiefdom...
 
We are now in Monarchy. Does the cap issue still matter? Sorry for being so dense, I never even heard of rate caps before this game.

=====================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Doc Tsiolkovski (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.
 
Monarchy has a cap of 60% percent. IIRC Republic is at 70%, Fundamentalism at 50%. The others are 80+, so you hardly will notice it ever.

Btw, that one is not a fancy idea of Kal-el, it was similar in Civ2 already (Fundamentalism had a halfed research rate), that's why it was included as an editor option from the very beginning.

And yes, just like Meldor mentioned, it requires a slightly different approach - adjust the sci slider every turn; that way, you'll hardly ever waste gp outside Chiefdom (let's assume 10% Lux, than we can lower Sci to 30% in Monarchy).

And I got it.
 
Arabia, 550BC
Nice, at least we can see Iron now; we definitely should expand in that direction.
Switch Damascus and Khurasan to Workers, 18spt for the capital is pretty lousy. We can and should join them back later.

Turn 1: 530BC
Spanish Warrior shows up. Get Civil Engineering, CoL, Mythology (Temples), Slavery (sacrifice), and Sailing (on the way to Ports) for Military Training and 140gp. Declare.
Research on Riding.
IBT: Mecca (Academy) ->Slave Market (in 1)

Turn 3: 490BC
With the Slave Market, Lux needs to go up; but that was deliberated. We should sell the SM ASAP once better boosters are available (building a Water Mill right now).
IBT: Riding-> Barding

Turn 6: 430BC
Throw some rocks on a Siamese TG, and we have one more Slave, and another Elite Archer.
IBT: Mecca (Water Mill) -> Sphinx (in 10)

Turn 7: 410BC
Barding-> Horse Breeding

*Killed a total of one unit :lol:. Neither the Viking nor the Spanish Champ/Warrior ever moved.
*We should sell the Slave Market at some point, but for now it saved turns for the Water Mill and The Sphinx subsequently.
*Research towards Mounted Archery; the capital will crank out Horse Archers every other turn, by far the best unit without Iron.
*Our Ranger can serve as MP, btw.
*I now have a different preferred next city spot:



Gold is always nice to have, and it is just one step away from the Iron.

The Save
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
No, the limitation as intended (and as it is already for the AI) is that "you cannot raise any of sci, lux and tax higher than the cap value". And of course it's a max limitation.
Click to expand...

OK, that makes sense.
 
Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Doc Tsiolkovski
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.
 
Preturn: I change one town to a worker for more road building. Looks like we want settlers. We want both the Lux to the NE and the Iron to the SE. Almost too much good land to grab.

We are Average to the Siamese, and Strong vs the Vikings and Spanish. Not a whole lot to fear from the AI yet.


IBT: Two Siamese Archers are seen.

330 BC: Move some units to counter the Archers.

IBT: We gain Horse Breeding. Going for Republic next as it says it has no WW.

310 BC: Our archer attacks and nets a slave. our chariot gets us one as well.

Lux is 30% for our size 13 capitol Reduce a turn off of getting the Sphynx (in 2).
lol, that is very funny. I check what sacrificing a slave gets us (2 culture), and then cancel it. We are booed.

290 BC: The Coffie and +6 food squares are too tempting. Going to go for them first. Hopefully it will mean more pioneers.

IBT: We got Sphinx.

270 BC: Mecca will build a hardy Pioneer next. Switch Khurasan to an Archer. It doesn't have any real need of a Shrine yet.
Basra switches to a Spearman.

IBT: Get Republic. Go for Mounted Archery next - attack 4 units that don't require iron.

250 BC: Build Anjar. Siamese troops spotted. There are 3 of them, so I switch Medina to build another Archer.

IBT: Capitol build a Hardy pioneer.

230 BC: Kill two of the Archers leaving the warrior unit. Get a slave.

IBT: The Viking warrior decides to attack and beats the a chariot.

210 BC: Get the coffee connected and we can finally lower lux to 20%

IBT: Spot Incense

190 BC: Hmm, it appears Siam is no longer sending units one at a time. Need to play more defensively.

IBT: We are attacked but have superior Hit Points and win.

170 BC: Bombard and kill a spear. Another slave.

IBT: A unit is landed in our back ranks.

150 BC: We kill another unit and get another slave.

Notes:
Looks like workers and slaves to sacrifice for border expansions will be no problem. We want to upgrade slaves to workers for the +20 culture rather than +2.
We have 12 slaves (I sacrificed one worker) and was averaging 2 workers every 3 turns.

I did not revolt to Republic yet. I don't trust the Civopedia on this (Republic gives the commercial bonus though it isn't mentioned). I wanted to make sure with Doc that we don't suffer War Weariness like it says. I also wanted a speed 3 atttack 4 horse archer defending us first.
 
Republic has low WW. As seen in our Deity game ;).

You should really get the 1.01 pedia. It still is not completely fixed (e.g., the entries for unit support under "Unit Support" is still outdated), but the actual Gov entries are correct.

IMHO the only viable choices for us are Monarchy -> Absolute Monarchy (->Communism, if the game lasts that long - I highly doubt it).
If we grab 12+ Luxuries and several wonders, we may try a low WW Gov; with a REL Civ, it may be worth a shot.

One point about the Slaves/Worker thing: For later, we should keep some Workers around, and not upgrade everything to Peasants - those cannot be sacrificed.

On Wonders: Now that all cities produce Vet units, we may want to consider the Silk Road in the capital, has a Colossus effect; IMHO it is almost too late for the Palace Gardens.
 
Looks like workers and slaves to sacrifice for border expansions will be no problem.
Click to expand...
I want to limit this to very critical expansions. I would rather be overloaded with workers then short. I see all the captured workers as our primary labor source.


I don't trust the Civopedia on this (Republic gives the commercial bonus though it isn't mentioned).
Click to expand...
Well my government spreadsheet says low weariness matching Docs comments.

=============================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Doc Tsiolkovski
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.
 
How do I get the 1.01 civopedia? I think I have 1.01 installed? Does this mean I don't?

Edit: I just remember how desperate we were to get border expansions in LK76 up quickly. Later towns can benefit directly from instant expxansions that will save it from direct attack. If sacrificing a worker has the possibility of saving units from attack then I think they are completely worth it. Same for getting resources or faster growth within the borders.

I discovered in CZ4 that Razing still gets us workers even in the modern era.
 
150 BC (0)
Not much to change. Decide not to attack Siam unit with spear, I think we would win, but we have a horse archer due in the capital interturn and we could get a slave. I see a Siamese city near the iron, we will have to take care of that.
(I)We get the horse archer and start another.

130 BC (1)
Horse arecher kills Siamese unit but no slave. Let hurt units heal in place. Move the pooineers towards their future home. Since the cap is now 60%, I turn science down to 40%.
(I) A reg Otomo appears in the north. We get Classical Education. Having only 3 techs left in this age, I go for the cheapest, Trade, due in 2

110 BC (2)
We will let the Otomo come in range of the elite units.
(I) A second Otomo appears behind the first. Mecca Horse Archer->Same

90 BC (3)
Kill the first Otomo with an elite but it drops to 1hp. Found the city of Fustat on the southeast hill. Found Sugar Shack, well...you guess.
(I) Our elite archer defends against the Otomo and we get a new slave. A third Otomo appears. Trade comes in and we go for Polytheism, due in 2. We get the message for the FP. Damascus Pioneer->Pioneer. Baghdad Spear->Spear.

70 BC (4)
Move the elite archers and slave to safety.
(I) A Siamese city appears at the pigs, yet another Otomo. Mecca HA->HA. Medina Pioneer->Forge. The Persians complete the Hanging Gardens.

50 BC (5)
The horse archer kills the Otomo in the forest, the Chariot kills the reg Otomo in the open and promotes to vet.
(I) We get Poly and start Monotheism.

30 BC (6)
Movement, no enemy units. Keep an eye on Viking canoe.
(I) Another Otomo. Mecca HA->HA.

10 BC (7)
Kill the Otomo and get a slave.
(I) Spanish Archer to the north. Anjar Pioneer->Spear.

10 AD (8)
Spot a Viking warrior to the north.
(I) A second Viking warrior appears in the north. We get Monotheism and start Currency. Mecca HA->HA

30 AD (9)
Movement. Get three Horse Archers in position to raze the pig town next turn. Move lux up to 30% .
(I) Spot a Siamese spear. Baghdad Spear->Spear, Khurasan Forge->Spear. The Spanish start Slave Trade.

50 AD (10)
Found Yamama in the south. The Horse Archers find Hat Yal to be empty. We take it. The odd thing is that the Siamese spear was on the hill outside the city. I decline to attack it on the hill.

There is a settler and a slave to found a city and expand the borders to bring in both incense and coffee. There is a settler in the south one step away from where the spear is fortified to found a front line city. Move the fresh spear towards the newly captured city.

We need to pick a site for the FP. We could switch Najran to it or wait for Fustat to finish the forge and start it there.
 
:confused: Why does the attachment say LK56? Has the Dutch demigod as an introduction to conquest come back?

It does sound like the number of attacking units is starting to heat up. However, it still doesn't sound that hot.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
It will drop to 5 to 10 turns in the industrial age.
 
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