MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
If it were right side up I am sure they would.
man's flag confiscated for a day for flying it upside-down.
- Thread starter caketastydelish
- Start date
If it were right side up I am sure they would.
Anyway, if there was a disturbance, the police should have told the crowd to gtfo, he can fly it however he wants if it isn't illegal.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
First, being upset aint a public disruption - you're already trying to replace your argument with a strawman.Regular Joes didn't steal the flag, the DA advised the cops to do that and they did. And yes, cops who steal private property should be relieved of duty. The fact they did it because they didn't like the perceived message just shows their contempt for the 1st Amendment. I dont see the angry mob in this scenario, the guy had been flying the flag upside down before the 4th arrived and a bunch of Mobby's didn't show up at his door. You invented the disruption to "justify" the cops actions.
I didnt 'invent' anything...its what the OP says. I am not even saying its true, because since I wasnt personally there I have no idea what the truth is in this case. I have merely pointed out that there can indeed be situations in which its perfectly legal for the powers that be to remove the flag display in order to keep the peace.
Now then...
If you dont buy that arguement fine. I dont really care. But to allege this is some sort of huge violation of the constitution, and the start of the police state...yadda, yadda, yadda.....is just silly.
Just for arguements sake...lets say the guy sues....and wins.
What would you say an adequate cash payout for this bozo's 'injuries'?
I mean an honest figure commensurate with his having his flag taken away for 1 day.
They should have anyways. Any one who cared what the flag meant would not have acted as that town did.
As much as it takes to make sure no one will ever do that again. If it bankrupts the town, then so be it. The overriding priority is to punish the town so severely that other towns take the lesson to heart. That matters more than everything else.
I figured that. We have the same problem here in Alberta, with our fringe parties that keep threatening independence. Nobody takes them seriously.z4ckdabeast said:
I didn't say it would be an easy solution, but it's the only sensible solution. Sometimes liquor licenses get denied here for reasons that are obvious to anybody, and sometimes it's because of some bureaucratic rule. But the sensible recourse would be to fix the reasons why the application was denied (ie. access issues, health issues, safety issues) and/or appeal the decision with the department that gave the reasons for the denial. If there's a problem with zoning, for example, the person can address City Council and/or the Planning Commission. This ties in with your remark about buying beer in convenience stores... it's not allowed here, and with good reason. Many of our convenience stores are located close to schools, and there are some kinds of businesses that are not allowed within certain distances of schools. Nobody wants kids to have that kind of easy access to alcohol, and the same reasoning applies when you consider how many convenience stores are part of, or close to, gas stations. The temptation to drink and drive is bad enough already; why make it even easier to be tempted?
I'm saying that if he really wants his liquor license and a successful business, he should go through the courts and whatever appeal processes exist (I can't believe there aren't any). That's what adults do. This nonsense with a flag suggests he's not prepared to do the sensible thing to get his business going, and is trading on his "patriotism" to do an end run around the process that other people have to go through. In short, he's acting like a child who wants special treatment.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Actually, its only supposed to be flown that way in case of serious distress...not to protest the fact that he cant get a silly booze license. Thats a frivilous reason to fly the flag in that manner. Its like calling 911 because your cable is out or for some other idiotic reason.
Thats not an answer. Nor do I agree that restitution needs to bankrupt the town. I would say the guy, if he actually won such a suit, should be paid comensurate with the damages that he has incurred. You cant tell me that he suffered so much as to be given millions from the city for this. Thats ridiculous.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
They shouldn't have done it, but taking things to court may unfairly burden tax payers who were not involved. I'd probably just issue an empty statement condemning those responsible.
If it goes to trail, I'd support siding with the man who had his flag taken away but not ordering the town to pay any more than $1. He can have his moral victory, but milking this for cash shouldn't be allowed.
If it goes to trail, I'd support siding with the man who had his flag taken away but not ordering the town to pay any more than $1. He can have his moral victory, but milking this for cash shouldn't be allowed.
my thoughts exactly, how is it different to take the flag from someone because flying it the way he did from banning publishing a cartoon in the papers because it would create a disturbance?
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Sounds good to me.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Easy. Give him an extra flag for a day.
No. No it's nothing like that.
edit: Come on man! Why all them anal logies? KKK marching in a black area, calling 911. It's a guy flying his flag upside down. Lets stick to the subject instead of going, it's just like .... to make a point.
edit 2: To end on a agreeable note
Works for me to.
Mise
isle of lucy
Can't the authorities simply discipline the offending officers?
Berzerker
Deity
Where did the OP say stealing the flag prevented a public disruption? On the contrary, it appears the town already knew about the flag and the guy's dispute with licensing bureaucrats and no one had been inspired to commit a public disruption over it. That makes the "keeping the peace" argument a bogus invention...
No, I dont. Its an argument for morons because even halfwits can see thru it... Now where did I allege this is the start of a police state? Yeah, thats silly. Your strawmen usually are. I said these guys should be fired for stealing, and they should be fired.
What the jury decides... If I was on it, $1 would suffice - it aint about money, its about public servants who understand the Constitution. These guys dont, they're unqualified for the job.
RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
Thread winner.
Trivial damages awards do not discourage bad behavior. Only large punitive awards do that. If you're fine with vast authoritarian government that ignore the Constitution on a whim, in other words, if you're a conservative, I can see why you hate holding governments accountable to the law.
Some of us would rather have a government that obeyed the law.
Seriously, how can conservatives even pretend to be for small government?
He's not small government.
The idea that a speech should be jack-booted when it's going to have more impact is basically completely against the idea of Freedom of Speech. And then to suggest that 'damages' for a breech of a fundamental right should be commensurate to the 'damages suffered' is misunderstanding the barrier between the police and the populace.
The idea that a speech should be jack-booted when it's going to have more impact is basically completely against the idea of Freedom of Speech. And then to suggest that 'damages' for a breech of a fundamental right should be commensurate to the 'damages suffered' is misunderstanding the barrier between the police and the populace.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
I don't think anyone should be able to steal stuff off your property, unless it's cops, they have a warrant of some sort, and are removing something illegal.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Seriously, how can conservatives even pretend to be for small government?
Is there any thing in the story to allege this was done by conservatives? I mean really, how long are you going to beat that horse?
Dont even pretend to speak for me. I am absolutely for small government and am on the record here stating as much. I think the fed government should absolutely trim down and get back to the basics of what it should provide as opposed to it being a nanny state.
Isnt the whole basis of a civil suit against the city to seek damages for his rights being trod upon?
And I love the use of the term 'jack booted' for having a flag taken away - and given back the next day. DARN THOSE BROWN SHIRTS!!!! They should have jack-booted him a few times for his trouble eh, and made him really feel repressed!!!
And as to my earlier question....it seems to me $1 seems to be an adequate fine recommended by several. Sounds about right to me.
Yeah, sorry. I'm not intending to speak for you. I don't want to give that impression. To be clear, I'm not saying that you don't claim to be 'for small government'. You do. Just that, imo, you're not actually what I would call a 'small government conservative'. There's a spectrum of conservatives, obviously, and you're in that spectrum. But I wouldn't say that, amongst the conservatives, you'd be 'small government'.
You're often to the left of me when it comes to small government.
The cops can come onto your property and seize some of your stuff at $1 a day, even if it's stuff guaranteed under the Constitution? Right ...
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Now there's a novel idea. A public spanking perhaps?Can't the authorities simply discipline the offending officers?
