American man gets fifteen years for flag-burning.

[Mouthwash]

It wasn't the American flag he burned, though.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50861259

Adolfo Martinez, 30, admitted to the media that he took the flag from Ames United Church of Christ due to his animosity towards homosexuals.

He was found guilty last month of hate crime harassment, reckless use of fire and being a habitual offender.

He was arrested later that day, and told local media in a jail house interview that he was "guilty as charged".

"It was an honour to do that. It's a blessing from the Lord," he said, explaining that he did it because he "opposed homosexuality".

"I burned down their pride, plain and simple," he told KCCI-TV. The interview was entered into the trial as evidence against him.

Church pastor Eileen Gebbie, who identifies as gay woman, says she agrees that Martinez' actions were motivated by hatred.

Erm, can we agree that this is not a proportionate response? I can't imagine getting fifteen years for putting a burning cross on a black family's lawn. His other crimes seem like misdemeanors to me.

 

[Zardnaar]

Burn your own flag is key. Where you burn it is also important.

Finally habitual offender.

 

[Birdjaguar]

A hate crime is a hate crime. I doubt that his years in prison will lessen his hate, so longer is probably better.

 

[Berzerker]

and seize the wretched idols of the heathen and put them to the torch, so saith the Lord

 

[FriendlyFire]

and seize the wretched idols of the heathen and put them to the torch, so saith the Lord

Thou shalt NOT bear false witness
Thous shalt NOT covert another mans wife
Thous shalt NOT steal
Thous shall NOT worship false idols

/s

 

[Patine]

It wasn't the American flag he burned, though.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50861259





Like, can we agree that this is not a proportionate response here? I can't imagine getting fifteen years for putting a burning cross on a black family's lawn. His other crimes seem like misdemeanors to me.

A hate crime is a hate crime. I doubt that his years in prison will lessen his hate, so longer is probably better.

and seize the wretched idols of the heathen and put them to the torch, so saith the Lord

But a Rainbow Flag is not actually uniquely endemic to the LGBTQ Movement. It has also a flag used by Buddhists, the Armenian Independence Movement from the Russian and Ottoman Empires, and then USSR, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast - a Federal Subject (or first-tier-administrative subdivision) of the Russian Federation at terminus of the Trans-Siberian Railway bordering Manchuria and Mongolia created in 1937 by Stalin as a "Soviet Zion," two political opposition electoral coalition in African nations to challenge powerful and corrupt incumbents - in Kenya and Ghana, and a flag used in Chile in the late 1800's.

That being said, it is a sign of totalitarianism and oppression to punish - especially so harshly - the destruction of a mere symbol alone, regardless of what it may be a symbol of. A hate crime is directly against a person or people, not against symbols.

 

[Berzerker]

okay Sheldon

 

[Patine]

okay Sheldon

Sorry, whose this "Sheldon?"

 

[EnglishEdward]

That being said, it is a sign of totalitarianism and oppression to punish - especially so harshly - the destruction of a mere symbol alone, regardless of what it may be a symbol of. A hate crime is directly against a person or people, not against symbols.

Quite so. And by giving lengthy sentences for non violent crimes, deterrence against violent crimes is inherently undermined.

If you hang a man for stealing a sheep, he is motivated to murder the farmer or gamekeeper who catches him.

 

[Mouthwash]

To be clear, I could genuinely see myself doing this if it came to my town. Gay people are innocent; gay pride is social engineering.

A hate crime is a hate crime. I doubt that his years in prison will lessen his hate, so longer is probably better.

The cruelty of those who worship 'love, kindness, tolerance' is boundless.

 

[Arwon]

The US jails people way too long for all sorts of things but habitually engaging in hateful and threatening gestures and harassment against groups of ppl is probably worth a custodial sentence of some sort.

As described there he's showed up at a club, made threats, got kicked out, then been angry enough to go grab a pride flag and burn it in front of the club while threatening to burn the club down. That and the mention of habitual offenses suggests this isn't exactly an isolated brain snap.

 

[Mouthwash]

The US jails people way too long for all sorts of things but habitually engaging in hateful and threatening gestures and harassment against groups of ppl is probably worth a custodial sentence of some sort

Sure. I'd say a month or so, in this guy's case (if that seems too short, then it's likely you don't grasp what prison is).

 

[Arwon]

I don't think threatening arson against a business, while burning a symbol associated with that business in front of it, is really a month sort of a sentence even without all the other stuff.

 

[Patine]

The US jails people way too long for all sorts of things but habitually engaging in hateful and threatening gestures and harassment against groups of ppl is probably worth a custodial sentence of some sort.

As described there he's showed up at a club, made threats, got kicked out, then been angry enough to go grab a pride flag and burn it in front of the club while threatening to burn the club down. That and the mention of habitual offenses suggests this isn't exactly an isolated brain snap.

But where is the line drawn between free discourse and belief, and "hate crimes?" This line is not clearly defined. And why can only certain demographics be legally "hated?"

 

[Patine]

I don't think threatening arson against a business, while burning a symbol associated with that business in front of it, is really a month sort of a sentence even without all the other stuff.

Arson, while a very serious crime, is a property crime - not a violent, hate crime.

 

[Mouthwash]

I don't think threatening arson against a business, while burning a symbol associated with that business in front of it, is really a month sort of a sentence even without all the other stuff.

I missed the arson part, but even a year seems like a stretch.

 

[Senethro]

Can you imagine some guy with a firearm just kinda following you around, shooting near you but not actually at you. Also he keeps shouting "Getcha next time, hahah! By the way this is not a violent crime! Noone has been harmed. Woo, watch for the next one!"

 

[Mouthwash]

Can you imagine some guy with a firearm just kinda following you around, shooting near you but actually at you. Also he keeps shouting "Getcha next time, hahah! By the way this is not a violent crime! Noone has been harmed. Woo, watch for the next one!"

That's, uh, not remotely comparable to this.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Wait, how exactly is pride "Social engineering?"

It's no more problematic than straight, cis people getting together to celebrate.

Your claim that the LGBTQ is innocent is disengenuous because you clearly take issue with them doing such a basic thing as organizing or meeting up.

You clearly have disdain towards the LGBTQ community.

 

[Senethro]

That's, uh, not remotely comparable to this.

Yes it is. You're overly focused on the material crime committed (burnt cloth, minor property theft) to the exclusion of the message clearly sent: "You're next", and the people it is sent to.

(leaving aside the issue of american sentencing conventions)