Markets and the State

You'd better be thanking us. If we weren't paying so much, your "collective bargaining" would drive these companies out of business, and then you wouldn't be able to get your drugs at ANY price.

well i did ... i will put it in bold next time... just for you ;)
seems that you believe drug companies will not opperate to fill consumer demand, probally why they will pour their reseach dollars into drugs you have to take every day for the rest of your life ... but will not be so interested in a one shot short term treatments that prevents stomarch ulcers... maybe you should thank "us"...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4304290.stm

makes you wonder what other treatments are not followed up due to the fact that a lifelong consumer will not be the outcome
 
they will pour their reseach dollars into drugs you have to take every day for the rest of your life ... but will not be so interested in a one shot short term treatments that prevents stomarch ulcers

Of course not. Why would they be? Big Pharma funds pharmaceutical research, not general medical research. You might as well be criticizing them for not funding particle accelerators or manned Moon missions.

makes you wonder what other treatments are not followed up due to the fact that a lifelong consumer will not be the outcome

There is no "followed up" or "not followed up". These companies find new chemicals and then try to figure out what those chemicals do. If the effect is marketable, they'll sell it, whether the consumer is a lifelong one or not. They never say "hey, this new Linezolid stuff is pretty neat, but the patient will actually be cured after a few treatments. Instead of selling it for $2,000 per pill, let's just ignore it"
 
There is no "followed up" or "not followed up". These companies find new chemicals and then try to figure out what those chemicals do. If the effect is marketable, they'll sell it, whether the consumer is a lifelong one or not. They never say "hey, this new Linezolid stuff is pretty neat, but the patient will actually be cured after a few treatments. Instead of selling it for $2,000 per pill, let's just ignore it"

but that is exactly what happened... which is why the guys got the noble prize, for over 10 years they could not get any interest from drug companies...
but it all worked out in the end ... they found that an extensive advertising campaign could sell the old drugs... every day for the rest of your lives for "Gastric reflux" discovered in 1999... how convientant ;)... if it was not for curing stomach Ulcers that lead to stomach cancer, you would not have found out that you need to "treat" gastric reflux

despite the fact that water can be just as effective...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/07/08/water-works-better-than-ulcer-pills-to-decrease-stomach-acid.aspx
 
but that is exactly what happened... which is why the guys got the noble prize, for over 10 years they could not get any interest from drug companies...

You mean the drug companies that were already producing the drugs prior to the ulcer discovery?
 
You mean the drug companies that were already producing the drugs prior to the ulcer discovery?

yes exactly... the companies that were producing drugs that had no effect on ulcers... the same as the water that was around before these drugs found a new set of consumers to sell too... even the same advertisers... but that is the other thread...;)
 
People forget that the "free market" only operates to the consumer's benefit when there is perfect competition. Most brand name drugs are on patent, which means the company making them has a monopoly on them. Furthermore, there are rather few pharmaceutical companies in the world, and fewer still that sell in the US. That makes most of the drugs, especially the more vital ones, sold in the US are more expensive than those sold in more regulated markets. That's what the free market produces. When you only have one company that make the product in a given market, it can charge any price it wants and the customer has no choice but to pay. The customer, in this case, is a patient suffering from a disease not of his own making, whose health is at the mercy of a greedy corporation. He can't afford to refuse to buy. The reason that drugs are cheaper in the countries that have universal healthcare is because the state negotiates with drug makers to buy drugs at more affordable prices. If the company refuses to play ball, they will lose an entire country of a market. The state has, therefore, more leverage than a single customer.
 
I think a far better question is why we are not allowed to purchase those drugs from those Canadian or European vendors when they are far cheaper. The excuse is apparently that the FDA has not approved those drugs from such backward countries manufactured by vendors who might be trying to kill you, even if they are exactly the same manufacturer.

I think that is preposterous. We should be allowed to take that massive risk if we desire to do so.
 
You'd better be thanking us. If we weren't paying so much, your "collective bargaining" would drive these companies out of business, and then you wouldn't be able to get your drugs at ANY price.
More fool you then. They've been fleecing the US public like this for a couple of decades, tops, since that's they've were enabled to. As it happens the global market is shifting away from the US. Future profits are to be made in the emerging markets. This never was some zero-sum game, with the US as the prize, for the pharmaceutical companies. But I guess the US can always try to convince the African nations to adopt the US model...

And more fool you, for paying a premium to an industry that was the bee's knees in the 1940's to 70's, when we had a pharmaceutical revolution, due to in effect the pharmaceutical industry scouring the world for substances to test for medical properties, and finding a shed-load, but where the law of diminishing returns has meant the number of new and effective substances has dwindled beginning in the 1980's. Yet the pharmaceutical industry is making bigger profits than ever, while the healthcare outcome of the expense on their new products is dwindling, and nowhere are their profits bigger than in the US, and the healthcare outcome is still meager.

The US is now famous for paying through its nose, to a relatively underperforming industry (the pharmaceutical), while getting a sub-par effect on its public health.
 
People forget that the "free market" only operates to the consumer's benefit when there is perfect competition. Most brand name drugs are on patent, which means the company making them has a monopoly on them.

You've managed to contradict yourself by citing a government granted monopoly - namely patents - as an example of the free market.
 
You've managed to contradict yourself by citing a government granted monopoly - namely patents - as an example of the free market.

Not really, if patents didnt exist in this case and all competitiors could have access to say company A's data then it would just be an oligarchic industry with very similar results to a monopoly.
 
The NHS is a effective form of regulation. It saves lives. We pay with taxes. This means anyone can have healthcare. We are happy to not be in the state of the American health services.
 
Fun fact: if everything had to go through the FDA approval process, chocolate would be illegal. It's quite toxic to most mammals, but humans have a unique ability to tolerate it. And yes, there's the advertising issue. And probably other stuff, too.

Because once a scientist starts to work for the FDA or some other government agency he forgets that humans are not rats and becomes a total moron, and the poor pharma industry has no lobby that could do anything to combat obviously stupid prohibitions.
 
You've managed to contradict yourself by citing a government granted monopoly - namely patents - as an example of the free market.
That was his point, wasn't it- that the marker is currently constructed in a fashion contrary to consumer interests, and that this isn't properly addressed by the lolbertarians?
 
I would be very interested to know exactly what regulations people would like to see removed. While some could probably be relaxed (requiring the LD50 for all drugs, including those that are basicly non-toxic would be top of my list) generally they are there for very good reasons, basicly the requirment to prove effectiveness and safety. The only example given is:

You mean like the laws preventing me from getting Seconal over the counter, forcing me to rely on vodka to control my insomnia? Yeah, that's really good for my "safety".

This is a perfect example of GOOD drug regulations. I do not know the details of this drug in particular, but sleeping drugs that are not available OTC are usually because of there potential as drugs of abuse. Care to guess what the most popular treatment for insomnia was in an unregulated industry? Laudanum
 
You mean like the laws preventing me from getting Seconal over the counter, forcing me to rely on vodka to control my insomnia? Yeah, that's really good for my "safety".
There are many ways of dealing with insomnia... not just seconal or vodka...
And, if seconal is habit forming (which I don't know if it is), it should probably be regulated.

I'm not saying we should never de-regulated... I'm just saying, be specific. When I hear, we need to regulate/de-regulate, I think, we need specifics, otherwise it is just buzz words.
 
People forget that the "free market" only operates to the consumer's benefit when there is perfect competition. Most brand name drugs are on patent, which means the company making them has a monopoly on them.

I've already stated that American IP laws need to be severely curtailed/overhauled.

When you only have one company that make the product in a given market, it can charge any price it wants and the customer has no choice but to pay. The customer, in this case, is a patient suffering from a disease not of his own making, whose health is at the mercy of a greedy corporation. He can't afford to refuse to buy.

I dunno, dude. If I had trouble getting it up, I'm not sure that I would buy Viagra even at generic prices.

I think a far better question is why we are not allowed to purchase those drugs from those Canadian or European vendors when they are far cheaper. The excuse is apparently that the FDA has not approved those drugs from such backward countries manufactured by vendors who might be trying to kill you, even if they are exactly the same manufacturer.

I think that is preposterous. We should be allowed to take that massive risk if we desire to do so.

:lol:

The stupidity swings both ways, actually. While the USA should certainly not be throwing a hissy fit over re-importing those drugs that we exported to Canada in the first place, I also have to wonder why the Canadian government is negotiating for lower drug prices for non-Canadians...

Not really, if patents didnt exist in this case and all competitiors could have access to say company A's data then it would just be an oligarchic industry with very similar results to a monopoly.

Not really. If patents didn't exist, there would be no incentive for these companies to do any R&D at all, and we'd never get new drugs.

The NHS is a effective form of regulation. It saves lives. We pay with taxes. This means anyone can have healthcare. We are happy to not be in the state of the American health services.

Will you be saying the same thing when you get diagnosed with cancer and they put you on the dreaded Waiting List?

I mean, I know the American medical system is screwed up, but what makes everyone think that UHC is the sole alternative?

Because once a scientist starts to work for the FDA or some other government agency he forgets that humans are not rats and becomes a total moron

Of course not. It's not the scientists who work for the FDA, but the bureaucrats who run the FDA, who are the total morons. They're the ones who mandate animal testing before moving on to human trials.

That was his point, wasn't it- that the marker is currently constructed in a fashion contrary to consumer interests, and that this isn't properly addressed by the lolbertarians?

Libertarians are sharply divided on the issues of intellectual property, abortion, and capital punishment. When it comes to IP laws, I tend to fly the Jolly Roger, and I don't believe that things like drugs or "Roundup-ready" soybeans should be patentable, though they can be trade secrets like the Colonel's secret blend, and methods of manufacturing them should be patentable.

This is a perfect example of GOOD drug regulations.

Excuse me, but this regulation has DESTROYED MY LIFE and very nearly ENDED it. What's so "good" about that?:mad:

I do not know the details of this drug in particular

Then you need to STFU. Seriously.

If you're curious, though, Seconal is the trade name of secobarbital, which is a member of the barbiturate class of drugs. Barbiturates have the same effect on the brain's GABA-a receptors as alcohol does, but whereas alcohol will irritate your stomach, strip the delicate linings from the villi in your small intestine (thereby causing malnutrition), screw around with your body's glucose-glycogen conversion, and generally cause all sorts of havoc before being metabolized into acetaldehyde, which is THIRTY TIMES AS TOXIC as the alcohol itself and the primary cause of liver cirrhosis and hangovers, barbiturates won't do any of those things. Barbiturates are, in effect, the real-world equivalent of the "synthehol" found in the later Star Treks.

but sleeping drugs that are not available OTC are usually because of there potential as drugs of abuse.

Yeah. Alcohol is so much better :rolleyes:

Care to guess what the most popular treatment for insomnia was in an unregulated industry?

Should I give a damn?

There are many ways of dealing with insomnia... not just seconal or vodka...

For most cases of insomnia, that's true. However, after trying everything from Ativan, Ambien, Lexapro, Seroquel, Remeron, and Doxepin to melatonin, Benadryl, and phenibut, I've managed to trace the source of the problem to my GABA-a receptors, which leaves me with three treatments that don't involve forcibly shutting my brain down via Serotonin Syndrome: alcohol, benzodiazepines, and barbiturates. Although normal humans will develop a cross-tolerance between these three classes of drugs, I do not, so alcohol and barbiturates are still effective while benzodiazepines stopped working after 3 weeks.

Where is this free market you speak of?

It died in 1913. We have yet to find the body.
 
Bullcrap. The last time I was prescribed something, I looked at the price tag, and I was like "WTH? Screw that! I'd rather go unmedicated and keep my $300/month"

That's the free market at work.

That's the most hilarious and saddest thing I've read this month so far
 
Of course not. It's not the scientists who work for the FDA, but the bureaucrats who run the FDA, who are the total morons. They're the ones who mandate animal testing before moving on to human trials.

Only a total moron would not immediately start with humans trials ? Are you frakking serious ?
Despite cute examples like chocolate and specialized poison resistances in some species all mammals on earth are actually quite similar, and we have long figured out what species are more similar to humans than others. If kills a rat it will most likely kill a human, if it gives a rhesus monkey cancer it will most likely give a human cancer.
Total morons who insist on animal testing first. Jesus Christ !
 
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