MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[Sir Bugsy]

Earlier Alan asked about FP strategy. I like your selection of Suzuka for the FP. As we fill in the southern coast with cities, it will be a very productive core. We can later build a palace in Tokugawa or Takeda lands with a leader.

Bugs

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I've now learned two things today from you Alan... the peace treaty negotiations. I've read about them, but that's the first time I've seen them used.

I learnt about them in Moonsinger's trade training thread, and I've used them myself since. That thread was awesome, and I can't recommend it highly enough. It should be in the Strategy Articles forum, but instead it's slipped way down the GOTM forum index. Here is a link if you haven't seen it before and want to get the real low-down on how it can be done. Moonsinger presented a Civ3 v1.29 game save at a point of intercontinental contact when Map Making arrives on the scene, and the exercise is to get the best trade result out of that single turn. Try it yourself first, then read the rest of the thread. Read it and weep!

We used peace renegotiations particularly vigorously during SG23, and Smackster pointed out that they are still possible even if you are already in other 20 turn deals with the civ, just as long as you didn't tie peace in with the trade or diplo deal, and providing that you actually agree to a deal, of course!

We could probably get the Mori to pay us for a MA against Tokugawa.

Good thinking!

Now smackster gets to have some serious fun. Gengis, this will right up your alley.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it rolls forward from here. Let's hope Gengis gets his system in gear.

 

[smackster]

I have got it, I have not looked at it yet. For various reasons I'm in a hotel on a dial up, I have my PTW CD in the drive and its taped up and I have no spare tape (I'll risk it in a minute), and my son managed to trip with a pencil in his mouth cutting the top of his mouth. So I'm only just getting to it, so much for playing same day as Alan, if I don't finish tonight, I will for sure on the way to work tomorrow (stop in a layby or something).

All for the love of Civ.

 

[smackster]

I really have the save now, loaded up, the technology is working.

I am 100% sure that we will have our first war here. Too bad about the GA, but not waiting for Monarchy. Will get our friends to the west to help, for whatever we need to give them.

Wish me luck.

Might not post until the morning, but will surely finish this tonight.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

Whoohoo! Have you seen mad-bax's latest graph update? We have lift-off!

I expect you've played already, Smackster, but good luck anyway. As we have a lot of Tokugawa's horsemen over in the east, and scattered all over the map, we should be having a turkey shoot.

Are you OK to play next, Gengis?

 

[smackster]

Part 1 : Before the storm

550BC

Just clicking end turn, nothing to trade or do

IBT See a big green junk to the SE

T1 530BC

Ogaki warrior->horseman
Koromo warrior->flagged footman, judging from its location next to Toku, decide we might need the defence
Moriama warrior->warrior

Iron hooked up.

Takeda will give us a worker for 30Gold, why so cheap? I went looking to generate more cash but can't resist buying workers at those prices.

Don't get any cash, with 621 gold we can upgrade 15 warriors, as Toku have troops all over our land, we want to take them out probably next turn. So will upgrade in locations that appear to be where their troops will be next turn, plus at least two squads to attack their lands

IBT Toku sending more troops into our area, will make the war declaration tricky.

T2 510BC

Ise worker -> worker (why not just keep pumping them out)
Yokachi warrior->horsemen

Realise that we don't have an embassy with Takeda, so do buy that for 50 gold. Decide to wait on the attack, for at least one more turn, don't like the Toku troop positions (too many on mountains).
Notice that Currency is in play with Takeda and Toku, but don't want to pay 20GPT for it thankyou. We could trade broker for it with Choso for Civil Service, but its too risky that we wouldn't even get that. I want to keep the 40 GPT for now, as we can upgrade one per turn and will surely need it soon.

IBT Toku and Takeda sign an alliance against Mori, the bullies, so much for our alliance though.

T3 490BC

Handa warrior->footman (not sure if we'll complete this, building in case I need to rush defence)
Kasagi warrior->footman (same as above)

The T's both have contact with Shimazu, will trade for 25 Gold and 5 GPT. Decide to trade for it with Chosog (who also know the contact), just in case Shima have say Monarchy.

They don't but they do have Civil Service and don't have lots of stuff we do have so its trading time.
First get 50 Gold for Shima contact from Koroda. Shima give us Civil Service + 5 gold for Maths and Myst, their WM + 30 for our WM. They are on an island to the NE.
Takeda give us 20 for our new WM, Koroda 50, Chosu 21, Toku 20.

So we gave up 25 + 5GPT = 125, we got Civil Service + 186 + new World map.

We now have 227 gold, time for some more upgrades. I will surely wait until next turn for the attack.

That's it, pretty boring turn really

With Toku all over our land, I move our troops into place, to get them to move off mountains, into open space

IBT with the manipulations shown I pretty much get the Toku to go where I want for a good attack on them

I have made the attacks but haven't quite finished, will publish as soon as I can

 

[smackster]

Double post, my mouse is dodgy

 

[smackster]

Part 2 : The Storm Begins

T4 470BC

Azuchi horseman->horseman
Nagoya settler->settler
Blew the happiness in Suzuka and it revolted, I moved a warrior to stop Toku getting the mountains after I had checked happiness, did recheck but didn't do it right.
Oh well its only building the FP.

Now have 7 Toku within our territory in kill range, none on mountains. Will attack this turn. GA or not, Monarchy not in sight.
We have 20 Kensai, and their military is weak, with the first move kill, it should be easy. Will have to think about allies later.

GA it is, first win and an elite upgrade. Regular warrior kills a horse, and another upgrade. Great graphics, third win, third upgrade elite No.2.
5th win, third elite upgrade. It had to happen, one Kensai dies attacking an archer on a hill. Got six of their seven. Moving on one of their cities with 6 Oda.
Can get Takeda alliance for 40GPT, too steep. Just have to hope they don't ally with Toku.

Tweak slider 10%, this is because of moving the troops around to push Toku into the positions I wanted.

IBT Toku send a Junk NE, watch out for that. No counter attacks

T5 450BC

ISE worker->worker

Oda kills archer, Oda killed attacking archer on mountain, elite Oda kills the archer.
Oda attacks Lida, kills footman upgrades to elite (4 elites now). Oda dies on footman, Oda kills archer another upgrade to elite (5 elite now)
Lida taken, one resistor

Mori have Contsruction, but want 44 GPT, plus everything else we have. I wont do this, although I know they'll get lots for this from others.

Slider back to 0%

IBT More Toku horses appear, I think we can take them

T6 430BC

Korudo footman->horseman
Ogaki horseman->horseman
Handa footman->horseman

Couple more kills. Consolidating troops. With 5 elites we have a good base for a leader. Don't want to rush the attack. The next cities are far enough away that we would be attacked by horses in open, so need to build our forces before the next push.

IBT Lost an Oda to counter attacks, he took a horse with him

T7 410BC

Nagoya Settler->Temple (we can get it in 4, and its grown too low in pop, sorry not been manipulating properly, too excited about fighting)
Couple more kills for Oda

IBT See Toku archer to our east, have to move quick to send him off. The Greens move a Settler into our area (I have to keep looking up their names)

T8 390BC

Azuchi horse->horse
Kita-Ku barracks->worker

Still playing 15 kills, to 3 losses, one city taken.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Looking good, my first turn will come during a GA, nice!

I'm gonna finish the loads tonight after work, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[smackster]

Gengis good to see that you are here, I'm going to finish those last two moves now. This is a fun one, with lots of fighting, however it is getting to a precarious position. Not sure how more resistance Toku will put up, but those long stretches of open space to their capital is worrisome, as they may have more horses coming. I may just inch the troops forward and let you make the next push.

Should see another post soon I hope.

Smackster

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Great bit of Generalship there smackster!
These turns should move us further ahead in the competition.

Don't forget to keep settling lands.

 

[smackster]

Part 3 : Barb interference

T8 390BC continued

Oda kills archer, Oda attacks Mishima to the south kills footman (at least one left), Oda kills archer on mountain. Now it is clear that the attack on Hamam must come via Shimoda to the SE. This allows the attacks to come through moutains/hills and not expose our troops too much.

IBT Toku has one archer one warrior to the NE, sending Oda to help

T9 370BC

Yokachi horse->horse

Barbarian uprisings. Will send Oda to help there too, good job we have lots of them.

Built New Azuchi
Mishima auto-razed, two footmen killed, another elite upgrade. Horse kills archer on hill. Horse kills archer on hill. Rushed barracks in smackster.
3 Oda next to Shimona, will attack next turn.

IBT Takeda offer alliance against Mori, reject it for now

T10 350BC

Ogaki horse->horse
Handa horse->horse
Smackster Barracks->temple (feel free to change this)

All the barb horses move on Ichinowa, might have to let them take it. Nothing to lose there really.

Shimoda taken, but lost two Oda, horse get its with elite upgrade, but archer is left and may take it back
Archer killed NE, another elite upgrade. Just a warrior left NE now, so watch out for him.
Still have cash left for another upgrade this turn.

Here are the front lines.

Things to look out for, the 16 horses cannot get to Ichinowa this turn, and there are some Oda defences next to it. There is no doubt if you take the warrior out of Ichi, and spend all our cash then we will lose nothing there. But I think there is a chance for a few Oda attacks, its your choice. The troops are gathering for the push in the Toku capital so its up to you.

I suggest a slow attack to get the elite wins in. There must be around 7 elite Oda now, with one elite horse so there is a chance we will get a leader soon.

I have not looked at the diplomacy screen this turn. We still lack currency and construction, and it may be time to start researching them we can actually get Currency in 5 turns, and we have upgraded most of the warriors now.

.zip

Score 470 Still second from last on score, but I'm sure not for long

Smackster

 

[smackster]

Sir Bugsy,

Yes the Settlers were still being pumped out, but its a long way for them to get to any space now, and one met Toku troops to the NE (he ran away). Our settler factory is building a quick temple as it got down to 3 pop, Gengis can certainly change this, but I think its nice to get a little culture and was only four turns. I settled one town in this turn, and I think we have two settlers on route.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

very cool smackster. A great set of turns.

I say give our money to someone, move our units out of the town and let the barbs have their way. It is not worth losing units to them.

 

[AlanH]

@Smackster: Well done! War's hard work, isn't it!

Firaxis score is now 470 at 350 BC.

@Bugsy: Don't forget this is a conquest objective. We should build new cities to deny space for AI expansion, of course, but we don't need territory for its own sake. Our current task should be to make maximum use of our Kensai Oda to delete civs before we reach Chivalry, when they will cease to give us an advantage. Having said that, I left a settler heading south intending to occupy some space on the south coast. Interesting that New Azuchi finished up as far north as it can be!

Educate me, please ... I am obviously missing a trick here. Why do you guys build footmen? An Oda has the same defence as a footman, looks just as pretty, and can attack as well. It seems to me it may even be worth unhooking a city or two and churning out warriors every turn for upgrade instead. As Smackster says, we are making enough gold to upgrade one per turn. Footmen need 20 shields and can't go out and conquer the world.

Re. the barbs, we have 50-ish gold. That will buy an embassy, which we'll need anyway sometime. The city they'll hit will probably not yield a lot of cash even if we still have some left, as I think it is taken in proportion to the population.

Speaking of embassies, maybe we should get some action going out east? Declare war on Chosogabe and get Mori in on it as our proxy ... or vice versa?

[EDIT]Looking at the power curve Takeda (the red one) is our biggest rival at the moment. We need to get him into the fight to slow him down. We can reduce the cost of an alliance vs. Tokugawa by allying with him vs. Mori (orange). Mori is too far away to give us much trouble, and we can maybe get Chosogabe (yellow) or Kuroda (green) involved to keep him off our backs.

 

[smackster]

Originally posted by AlanH
Having said that, I left a settler heading south intending to occupy some space on the south coast. Interesting that New Azuchi finished up as far north as it can be!

I don't really remember what happened to him, and with limited time I couldn't go and look at your post in detail so I just played with what I saw, so I didn't know where he was heading. That New Azuchi settler was about the third settler I think. I'll need to look at it again

Originally posted by AlanH
Educate me, please ... I am obviously missing a trick here. Why do you guys build footmen? An Oda has the same defence as a footman, looks just as pretty, and can attack as well. It seems to me it may even be worth unhooking a city or two and churning out warriors every turn for upgrade instead. As Smackster says, we are making enough gold to upgrade one per turn. Footmen need 20 shields and can't go out and conquer the world.
[/B]

Front line defence. When I take a new city I'm not going to leave it undefended, and I don't want to waste an Oda defending it, so I build a footman to defend it. Also that footman will one day become Musket, Rifleman, Infantry, for the same purpose. Once the frontline moves, I'll move the footmen with it.

 

[smackster]

Originally posted by AlanH

[EDIT]Looking at the power curve Takeda (the red one) is our biggest rival at the moment. We need to get him into the fight to slow him down. We can reduce the cost of an alliance vs. Tokugawa by allying with him vs. Mori (orange). Mori is too far away to give us much trouble, and we can maybe get Chosogabe (yellow) or Kuroda (green) involved to keep him off our backs.

Yes we should take that Mori alliance with Takeda. Remember Toku and Takeda are allied still and he would break that for 40GPT previously. If we ally with Takeda against Mori, then how much would you spend for a Takeda alliance against Toku? Say 20GPT? Not sure how much we could get it for, but how much should we accept.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Buy embassy *smacks forehead* Yes, that is a much better use of our money.

I think I built two footmen for the defense. That was in the pre-Kensai period and I felt it was a good idea at the time. In hindsight that probably wasn't the best build choice. So I learn my first thing from Alan today. I think by the end of this game. Alan will have raised my playing up several notches.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by smackster


Yes we should take that Mori alliance with Takeda. Remember Toku and Takeda are allied still and he would break that for 40GPT previously. If we ally with Takeda against Mori, then how much would you spend for a Takeda alliance against Toku? Say 20GPT? Not sure how much we could get it for, but how much should we accept.

I checked before I edited the post He will ally with us against Tokugawa for 14 gpt if we also ally with him against Mori. That will really cramp his style because, as you say, he will kill his rep as well as getting in deep with Tokugawa.

 

[smackster]

About the footmen. If you look at my last picture we have an Oda defending Lima, we should send the footman round to defend it so that the Oda can join the attack. That is a good use of a footman. To the south you will see a footman on a mountain, who is actually protecting two Oda (weakened) from that archer. Clearly we dont want many footmen, but there is certainly a place for them in any game.

Smackster