Merijn new civs and other projects

[1SDANi]

Well, I still think that it should be 1901, following the same logic is Canada. I think that 1 civ starting so late is not a big problem, and there are still quite a few turns before the end of the game.

Speaking of which, could we have an option that removes the bonuses from Future Tech and removes Time Victory? It'd be really cool for that to be an official setting. I'm not sure if it's possible with advanced setup, but even if it is I believe it's important enough of a mode to be added in the general game setup, as I doubt I'm the only one who cares more about playing and less about winning.

 

[merijn_v1]

Is it feasible to have a different starting data depending on whether the civ is human- or AI-controlled? I agree that a 1788 start date is probably more fun to play, but it makes no sense in the context of a historical simulation, considering how other post-colonial civs are handled.

That's currently not possible.

Also the Sweden start date is wrong

What's wrong about it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sweden#Modern_Sweden:_1523–1611

 

[Steb]

That's currently not possible.

I thought as much. Then I would say that a 1901 spawn date is preferable in all circumstances.

What's wrong about it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sweden#Modern_Sweden:_1523–1611

To quote myself from an earlier thread:

I understand the rationale for a 1523 spawn—it represents the birth of modern Sweden, the breakaway from the Kalmar Union (which would be represented by a united Viking Scandinavia in game) and the end of Danish domination. Yet I feel an earlier spawn date would be better, since the Swedish state did exist for centuries before 1523. It actually started to colonize Finland and Norrland in the Middle Ages. In addition, the Kalmar Union wasn't very stable, Denmark and Sweden kept separate identities, and they were even in open conflict during the union.

Unfortunately it's not clear when the kingdom of Sweden actually started, but a date that could work is the foundation of Stockholm c. 1250. This also corresponds approximately to the end of the consolidation of Sweden into a unified kingdom (see this guy).

Basically, the argument is that medieval Sweden was a thing.

The vast majority of (non-colonial) civs spawn before events like "the birth of modern X". England spawns in the 800s instead of 1066. Italy spawns in the 12th century instead of the 1870s. I don't think Sweden should be a special case, Kalmar Union notwithstanding.

 

[merijn_v1]

I thought as much. Then I would say that a 1901 spawn date is preferable in all circumstances.

1901 is really late. Too late for a nice UHV. Even with 1 year/turn.

Basically, the argument is that medieval Sweden was a thing.

The vast majority of (non-colonial) civs spawn before events like "the birth of modern X". England spawns in the 800s instead of 1066. Italy spawns in the 12th century instead of the 1870s. I don't think Sweden should be a special case, Kalmar Union notwithstanding.

I didn't choose 1523 because I wanted "modern" Sweden. I want Sweden to represent Sweden from the Gustav Vasa era on. (That wikipedia calls that the start of Modern Sweden is irrelevant to me)

I am aware that Sweden was a thing before that. But there are multiple civs which have a similar case. The Dutch were also a thing before 1581. France starts in 750 because of the Carolingian empire, whereas the Franks existed much earlier.

 

[Steb]

I didn't choose 1523 because I wanted "modern" Sweden. I want Sweden to represent Sweden from the Gustav Vasa era on. (That wikipedia calls that the start of Modern Sweden is irrelevant to me)

I am aware that Sweden was a thing before that. But there are multiple civs which have a similar case. The Dutch were also a thing before 1581. France starts in 750 because of the Carolingian empire, whereas the Franks existed much earlier.

Sure, the word "modern" is also irrelevant to me, but your choice of the Gustav Vasa era onwards boils down to the same thing. You picked one particular important event in the history of the civ as their spawn date, even though the civ existed before it. That's fine, you can make this design choice; I wouldn't do the same, and I'm giving my reasons, but that design choice is not wrong per se.

The principle I would use would be: "Pick the earliest possible date that can be associated with a historical presence of the civilization as an independent polity". The Dutch were not independent before the 1580s. Sweden was independent before, and partly during, the Kalmar Union period.

I'll admit I tend to be biased towards earlier spawn dates in general (well, except for Australia I guess!). There are several civs that I think spawn too late currently, such as the Maya. I think it would also make sense to have France/Frankia spawn in the 5th century.

Ultimately, the best reason to pick one or the other is whichever is more fun. I don't know the answer to that, and presumably you know more since you have at least playtested the 1523 date. If it's a fun start date, go for it!


(Caveat: I assume you know Dutch history much more than I do, so feel free to tell me I'm totally wrong if I am)

 

[ales_]

France spawns in the 8th century only because of problems in the very first version of RFC where there were no settler maps and spawning France at a different time than Germany and Spain caused one of them to settle in the others' territory.

About Australia: of course, I don't have any experience designing UHVs (or ideas about them for Australia) but I believe that UHVs 2 and 3 (or at least a slightly modified version of them) would still be possible with a starting date in 1901. Besides, it will make Australia's UHV more unique (shorter than most others) which is always good for a UHV. And I think that a hundred turns is not too short.

For Sweden I'd choose 970 AD as the start of Swedish monarchy but it's up to you to see what you want to represent with your Swedish civ.

 

[1SDANi]

France spawns in the 8th century only because of problems in the very first version of RFC where there were no settler maps and spawning France at a different time than Germany and Spain caused one of them to settle in the others' territory.

@Leoreth I'm guessing changing the French starting date in DoC is out of the question at the moment due to rebalancing concerns and more important issues being at hand?

 

[DC123456789]

1788 seems really early for Australia. Maybe 1850 (self/responsible government for the Australian colonies) would be better, if you don't want 1901? It would be basically around the same timeframe as Canada.

 

[merijn_v1]

I am considering moving the Australian spawn date a little backwards, but I don't want them to spawn later than 1850. With this, I'm also considering changing the 3rd UHV to "Have the highest approval rate for X turns". My reasons for this is that when you spawn, you need some time to develop your initial infrastructure, during which your research is quite low. And spawning later means that there are less tech to choose from to research first. And it also sync nice with the Sydney Opera House wonder.

 

[Steb]

For what it's worth, I'm spawning Israel in 1948 in my mod and I find that's plenty of time to have an interesting game.

 

[Leoreth]

@Leoreth I'm guessing changing the French starting date in DoC is out of the question at the moment due to rebalancing concerns and more important issues being at hand?

No I think that's quite the easy change because it's not that many turns, so it's easily compensated with less starting techs and units. I'm quite favourable toward this change, but obviously not before 1.15. Maybe it should be changed only when some additional civs are added as well.

 

[ales_]

When you'll be doing it, let us know, because I think it's a good idea to review all the civs' starting dates, and if I'm not mistaken it's easier to change such things all at once.

 

[Leoreth]

I agree. Let's have an open discussion about that after release. If I forget to mention this point in my 1.15 retrospective post then please remind me.

 

[merijn_v1]

I made all 4 civs available for git users. See the second post for installation instructions.

The regular version will be released after v1.15 still.

 

[1SDANi]

I made all 4 civs available for git users. See the second post for installation instructions.

The regular version will be released after v1.15 still.

Is it not yet possible to use multiple civs, eg Australia with South Africa?

 

[merijn_v1]

No. I created all civs in seperate branches and just released the branches.

I don't think I will create a branch will all civs combined, because that will increase the overhead a lot.

 

[1SDANi]

No. I created all civs in seperate branches and just released the branches.

I don't think I will create a branch will all civs combined, because that will increase the overhead a lot.

I would combine them myself, but I'm not very sure how to resolve the conflicts without causing more errors. I'll try after I'm done with my homework

 

[1SDANi]

I spent a couple hours trying to merge South Africa with Australia, I got it to the point that it'll load the game, though there's a Python error at game start linked to the Modifiers.py file. I'll work more on merging them tomorrow, I'm gonna go to sleep. Here's a fork with my changes hastily pushed to the develop branch cuz I'm too tired to look up how to make a new branch. Gnite!

https://github.com/earthcrafterman/Dawn-of-Civilization

 

[soul-breathing]

Swedish Karolin may add +10% with Arquebusier, it's for all musketmen.

And Iceland belongs to Norway-Denmark in 1700ad, so it may not be independent city in 1700ad scenerio.

Also, something weird in 600ad scenerio, Sweden initial land unit spawn on sea. Maybe a little mistake when edit scenerio.

Spoiler :

 

[1SDANi]

Merged South Africa and Australia into a single mod. It's available in the following Branch:

https://github.com/earthcrafterman/Dawn-of-Civilization/tree/CivComp