Military Aggression and the United States (split from Random Thoughts 2)

It's hardly 'opporunistic' on that part of the US that Japan declared war on the US on Dec 7, and Germany declared war on the US Dec 11. Neither of these events were the decision of the US government.
No, but the U.S. of A.'s economic blockade of Japan during wartime was already an act of aggression (not that I side with Japan or back their moves to conquer the entire western shore of the Pacific Ocean, of course).
There is more than a century between 1814 and 1941, and America spent that century very scrupulously avoiding fights that it had any realistic change of losing. That's not a criticism, as such; it's certainly a smart move, if you can get away with it. But it doesn't support the notion that the world was kept in check by the overwhelming power of an army that the United States only intermittently remembered that it actually had.
Of course it's a smart move, it's what we do in civ, isn't it? Let the other civs fight each other and gather resources until we have the population, industrial output and transport structure to trounce them at will. And use the army to put down pesky rebellious cities, too.
 
It's hardly 'opporunistic' on that part of the US that Japan declared war on the US on Dec 7, and Germany declared war on the US Dec 11. Neither of these events were the decision of the US government.

That is mostly false, though, given that the United States was arming Germany's enemies, and provoked Japan into attacking by oil embargo.

There is more than a century between 1814 and 1941, and America spent that century very scrupulously avoiding fights that it had any realistic change of losing. That's not a criticism, as such; it's certainly a smart move, if you can get away with it. But it doesn't support the notion that the world was kept in check by the overwhelming power of an army that the United States only intermittently remembered that it actually had.

There's different types of losing. Cutlass is right in the sense that while we could have nuisance defeats like those that characterized the war of 1812, there was no foreign power with the capacity to actually overrun the United States, even if we might lose a war by e.g. having an expeditionary force defeated. The oceans were too wide, the territory to be conquered simply too vast.
 
Commodore wasn't wrong about that.The first sentence of your link is:

Shelling the coast and bombing Oregon twice were just nuisances, not serious attacks.
People died. I'd consider that serious and so would you if it was someone you knew who did the dying. Imagine Hillary saying the Benghazi incident wasn't a "serious attack" because only 4 Americans died... people would lay on the ground, give birth to several spotted cows, then promptly have multiple heart attacks and die. Pointing out that the attacks were relatively minor in the grand-scheme of things during the war does not change the fact that the US mainland was not just threatened, but actually attacked during WW2 and the dude who claimed it wasn't was wrong. BTW, he's admitted as much, grudgingly, and that's all there is to it really.
 
People died. I'd consider that serious and so would you if it was someone you knew who did the dying. Imagine Hillary saying the Benghazi incident wasn't a "serious attack" because only 4 Americans died... people would lay on the ground, give birth to several spotted cows, then promptly have multiple heart attacks and die.

Even if people I know died, I believe I would retain the perspective to understand the vast difference between such an attack and, say, the firebombing of Tokyo which killed hundreds of thousands of people.

The main point here is that World War II certainly constituted "punching down" as the US was vastly more powerful than either of its main enemies (or both of them put together for that matter) and neither of those enemies seriously threatened to do to the US homeland what the US later would do to them.

Pointing out that the attacks were relatively minor in the grand-scheme of things during the war does not change the fact that the US mainland was not just threatened, but actually attacked during WW2 and the dude who claimed it wasn't was wrong. BTW, he's admitted as much, grudgingly, and that's all there is to it really.

It was never threatened with an actual invasion, though, is the point. And ironically part of the reason the Japanese carried off those raids was precisely to reduce Americans' morale by making it seem like a big deal.
 
The US in 1865 had the ability to put as much army as possible as far west as Texas-Mexico border. Geography would prevent any European power from landing an army further west than that.

The Rocky Mountains and the desert, combined, were not a trivial barrier. Invading Mexico through Texas was easier.
 
But, to go back to the original point, wasn't the main reason why it was never threatened with actual invasion literally because they were more powerful militarily? Or is it people's positions that the US would never have been attacked if they'd be militarily weak?
 
But, to go back to the original point, wasn't the main reason why it was never threatened with actual invasion literally because they were more powerful militarily? Or is it people's positions that the US would never have been attacked if they'd be militarily weak?



Well, after the War of 1812 the US was militarily weak. But by the same token, it had then demonstrated, twice, that it was able to at least maintain parity, on and near the North American continent at any rate, with what was at the time the world's greatest power. But it also didn't hurt that the European powers were far more concerned with each other than they were with North America. And so the combination of Moat Atlantic and divided priorities by European powers was sufficient safety in the era when the US was not really all that strong. Washington was right in calling for avoiding entanglements in European wars. Ethics or morality aside, the US simply was not up to in in that era. Now you get to the Mexican American War, and you see a US that can mobilize a formidable force in short order and take it a considerable distance from American population centers and wage aggressive war for the win. You get up to the Civil War, and the Atlantic Ocean aside, there was no power on earth in 1865 that would have had the ability to go head to head against the Union Army and win. And it wasn't just the size of the Army, at a million men. France or Russia could have matched, possibly even exceeded that. But it was also the American method of warfare. Simply put, the US could out-equip and out-supply any other army of the era. But the difficulty of fighting a war across an ocean still meant that that theory remained untested.

World War 1 was not America's war. But it demonstrated that the Atlantic was no longer the moat that it had been. It was no longer true that the US could not fight a major war in Europe against any other power.

Russian blood may have done the most to defeat the Axis in WWII. But that was largely a matter of the circumstances of how the war unfolded. The fact that the US could fight in all parts of the world at the same time, and that the efforts in one theater were not hampered by the efforts in the other, this is the industrial might of the US in the 1940s. It's not more soldiers, it's more everything.
 
"Opportunistic" might be a bit harsh, but it is less specious than the claim that the US defeated Nazi Germany. If anyone can claim that, it is the Russians.
I'm often the first to talk the Soviet sacrifices and burden in WWII, but without American assistance in high-strength steel, precision machining equipment, trucks, and logistic equipment (such as train locomotives) the Soviet counteroffensives would have struggled even more than they did to get off the ground. While on its own the Soviet Union wouldn't have lost to the Nazis, I am doubtful they would have won, except in the way a solitary British Empire would have "won", which is simply waiting for the Nazis to starve themselves into submission.
 
I'm often the first to talk the Soviet sacrifices and burden in WWII, but without American assistance in high-strength steel, precision machining equipment, trucks, and logistic equipment (such as train locomotives) the Soviet counteroffensives would have struggled even more than they did to get off the ground. While on its own the Soviet Union wouldn't have lost to the Nazis, I am doubtful they would have won, except in the way a solitary British Empire would have "won", which is simply waiting for the Nazis to starve themselves into submission.

Yes, but that could have been done with minimal military involvement. To help winning wars by providing one side with weapons, you might need a navy to secure the supply lines, but not much of an army.
 
The main point here is that World War II certainly constituted "punching down" as the US was vastly more powerful than either of its main enemies (or both of them put together for that matter)
Which again goes back to @Commodore 's point that the US can't really do anything else because the US is the Fist of the North Star... a point you and I also seem to agree upon. So suffice it to say, that the US was fighting the strongest available adversaries available at the time. It wasn't like the US was ducking the tough fights to push pansies around. I guess you can still call it punching down though, since the biggest kid on the block is by definition, always punching down... but as @Cutlass points out... if said big kid gets hit in the back of the head with a Snapple bottle... well then some punching down may just be the order of the day.
 
People died. I'd consider that serious and so would you if it was someone you knew who did the dying. Imagine Hillary saying the Benghazi incident wasn't a "serious attack" because only 4 Americans died... people would lay on the ground, give birth to several spotted cows, then promptly have multiple heart attacks and die. Pointing out that the attacks were relatively minor in the grand-scheme of things during the war does not change the fact that the US mainland was not just threatened, but actually attacked during WW2 and the dude who claimed it wasn't was wrong. BTW, he's admitted as much, grudgingly, and that's all there is to it really.

Four people dying in a war is only important to the people they know.

I can see this one from where I sit typing this.
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Torquay/CasualtiesofthebombingofSt.Marychurch.htm

other raids in my town
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Torquay/CiviliancasualtiesofthebombingofTorquay.htm

adjacent town
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Paignton/CasualtiesofthebombingofPaignton.htm
Other nearby towns within walking distance
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Newton Abbot/CasualtiesofthebombingofNewtonAbbot.htm
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Teignmouth/CasualtiesofthebombingofTeignmouthinWorldWar2.htm
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Brixham/CasualtiesofthebombingofBrixham.htm

Largest towns in county
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_Blitz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Blitz
 
Well, you're not shy about telling people where you live.
 
Yeap, the Russians only sold their interests on North America to the US after the Civil War was officially over.
 
But, to go back to the original point, wasn't the main reason why it was never threatened with actual invasion literally because they were more powerful militarily? Or is it people's positions that the US would never have been attacked if they'd be militarily weak?
America wasn't more powerful than most countries until the twentieth century. With one exception - 1861-65 - the US Army stayed remarkably small, and although the US Navy was significantly larger (and dwarfed the "six-frigate Navy" of the War of 1812) it still wasn't as big as the largest European battle fleets. But the US military was strong enough, and the Atlantic Ocean wide enough, to make war with America more trouble than it was worth.

In addition, the US government sank a fantastic sum of money into fortifying most of the major harbors on the Eastern Seaboard to make them difficult for foreign fleets to attack. Before the advent of aircraft carriers, trading shots with land-based fortifications was usually a losing proposition for navies unless they amassed overwhelming superiority. Placing forts at every harbor severely limited any European power's ability to project power into America. Even though the US Army was small, European powers couldn't land an army large enough to fight the Americans without taking the major US ports - which were fortified on land and defended by a navy large enough to matter.

Ultimately, American defense spending during the nineteenth century mattered. The single best example to prove the point is the Mexican intervention in the 1860s. Mexico was not saved from a European invasion by the mere existence of the Atlantic Ocean. The USA did not have to deal with such an invasion, because it was stronger militarily - enough to make European statesmen less sanguine about war with America than war with Mexico, despite plenty of European-American diplomatic disputes. Might there have been a real Aroostook War, or a war over the Venezuela-Guyana border, if the American military were smaller? Maybe - but war would certainly have been more likely in those cases than it was historically.

It's fun to poke holes in American blowhards, and of course anyone who thinks that USA#1 could have soloed the entire world in 1850 like a game of Victoria II is an idiot. One doesn't have to put on any airs about the capability of the US military to point out that it was strong enough to actually defend the nation.
Yes, but that could have been done with minimal military involvement. To help winning wars by providing one side with weapons, you might need a navy to secure the supply lines, but not much of an army.
I don't think so. Neither did Stalin, who spent three years screaming for the Western Allies to open up a second front in Northwest Europe. Clearly, American industrial production, American infrastructure support, American oil, and American food were all necessary conditions for the Red Army to survive and fight back and win, but they were not sufficient conditions for that to happen. The US Army obviously did not play the largest role in defeating Nazism, let alone the only role, but it was indispensable.

As far as that whole line of discussion goes, I think that it's a bit silly to say that the Americans were "punching down" in the Second World War. America could not have defeated Nazi Germany without the Soviet Union, full stop. (Or the Commonwealth, for that matter.) American industrial production and manpower were not limitless. Without Soviet troops to hold the fascists at bay, the Americans would be pressing their own factory workers into uniform. Invading France in 1944 was, as amphibious operations go, relatively smooth. Invading a France garrisoned by an extra seventy-to-a-hundred Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS divisions released from the Eastern Front would be harder to the point of near impossibility; the US Army would need to be much larger than it actually ended up being. Similarly, without American industrial production and raw materials, Stalin would have had much more serious limits on his own military manpower - manpower that was running dangerously close to dry at pretty much every point from late 1942 onward. Even the Grand Alliance, the mightiest coalition in the history of the world, had constraints on its actions.

None of that means that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were serious threats to destroy the USSR and UK and invade America, like something out of a bad alternate history. But there was undoubtedly a not too far-fetched scenario in which the Allies could not muster the military power to destroy Hitlerism, either.
 
Neither did Stalin, who spent three years screaming for the Western Allies to open up a second front in Northwest Europe.
With that kind of losses USSR suffered in the first year of war, anyone who didn't surrender immediately would be screaming for help. Yet, the second front was opened only at the time when Stalin got dangerously close to overrunning (almost) all continental Europe.
 
With that kind of losses USSR suffered in the first year of war, anyone who didn't surrender immediately would be screaming for help. Yet, the second front was opened only at the time when Stalin got dangerously close to overrunning (almost) all continental Europe.

Yeah, no.That completely ignores how long it takes to plan and go through with a large operation like Overlord. You can't just put a few man into boats and hope for the best, it takes ages to plan and train for an operation of that scale, not to mention setting up the logistics. Planning had already started over a year before the operation actually happened. And that is for Overlord itself. Planning of invasions in general already came up in 1941 and 1942 (Sledgehammer, Roundup). Sledgehammer was given up in favour of Torch, due to the bigger likelyhood of success. Roundup was planned for 1943, but the British asked for more suitable transports to cross the channel, which due to the American involvement in the Pacific took quite some time. This meant that the boats weren't ready for spring 1943, and the planning in general wouldn't be finished until autumn 1943 either, which in turn meant that an invasion couldn't come in concordance with the Soviet offensive in the summer. The plan was postponed, enhanced into roundhammer, which eventually turned into Overlord/Neptune. In May 1943 the Allies informed the Soviets that no invasion of northern Europe would happen in 1943, and that said invasion was planned for May 1944. So not only was this operation planned way in advance of the Soviet successes in 1943/44, but Stalin already knew about the plans. And in fact, things were planned in a way that the attacks in the west and east would coordinate and happen soon after another, to prevent Germany from moving troops in support.

It also ignores the front in Italy, which may not have been quite as large, but still kept the Nazis busy. Not to mention that the invasion of the Italian mainland led to the SS Panzer Corps being pulled from Kursk. Not that Germany could have succeeded at that battle if that hadn't been the case, but it still shows that the Soviets wouldn't have been able to advance nearly as fast or far if Germany didn't have a ton of troops fighting or guarding elsewhere. It's obviously the same way the other way round, without the Soviets the Allies never would have been able to land in continental Europe.
 
Planning of invasions in general already came up in 1941 and 1942 (Sledgehammer, Roundup).
No doubt about that. Planning for opening the second front took three years and could take a decade more for perfect readiness, but German defenses started to collapse and Western Allies decided it's time to reap the rewards lest the USSR gets everything.
 
With that kind of losses USSR suffered in the first year of war, anyone who didn't surrender immediately would be screaming for help. Yet, the second front was opened only at the time when Stalin got dangerously close to overrunning (almost) all continental Europe.
Not...really? In June 1944 Soviet forces hadn't even liberated Minsk yet. They had just spent an entire year fighting for Ukraine (and succeeding) and fighting for Belarus (and failing). They were a long way from overrunning "continental Europe".

That calculus changed after the colossal victories of July and August, but by then virtually everything about the situation had changed.

But imagine trying to pull off the Belorussian Strategic Offensive Operation in the face of the armored reserve that the Germans sent to France to fight the West, combined with Luftwaffe air cover free from worries about its fuel supply (wrecked in part by bombers operating from airfields captured by Allied ground forces in Italy) and not ravaged by the Western air forces. It's no accident that the time after the Luftwaffe disappeared from the Great Patriotic War was the time when the Red Army was finally able to go on the offensive successfully.
 
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