Much Ado About Lesbian Teen Sex?

[MobBoss]

I didn't know there were so many fellow Statists on this board. Even the righties lean left wing. I guess homophobia is a more powerful motivator than political ideology
Hey would you look at that, I can play that game as well

Homophobia has nothing to do with it. His suggestion would indeed create such a situation being legal, and that's nothing that anyone wants to see.

Scale of punishment is important. It's damned important. One day, a sexual relationship between minors, minors we know damned well are going to ignore the law when something far more pressing to their concerns and is going to come up as worth the risk in all their calculations, is a misdemeanor with relatively minor punishments set up as deterrents. The next day that preexisting relationship, unchanged in all its ignominy and glory except for both participants being one day older and closer to what in this society passes for "wise" becomes a 1st tier felony that we never ever stop punishing you for. That's a hideously. stupid. law.

Which is why they offered her a plea bargain. But again, sometimes young adults do hideously stupid things which result in a felony offense. This doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them accountable for those actions.

 

[Farm Boy]

Which is why they offered her a plea bargain.

That's your defense of this statute? It's idiotically written but if a prosecutor deems you mercy worthy maybe he'll save the state some cash and plea it down? Or he/she might not? Felony criminalization by government worker's arbitrary decree in any given case?

 

[Bamspeedy]

They should also change the school systems so that there are no more 9th graders in high school. I am really shocked that there are still schools in Florida where this occurs. I thought they all changed long ago.

Source? I've looked up a few and can't find any that are three year (but I'm sure there may be a few).

California was the other way in that 3 year high schools started to disappear starting in the '70s and by 1996 there were only a dozen left.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/3-Year-High-School-A-Thing-of-the-Past-3013821.php

 

[Formaldehyde]

You mean other than the one I graduated from, and every single one in the nearby area?

Given what occurred here, one of the reasons why should be quite obvious.

 

[MobBoss]

That's your defense of this statute? It's idiotically written but if a prosecutor deems you mercy worthy maybe he'll save the state some cash and plea it down? Or he/she might not? Felony criminalization by government worker's arbitrary decree in any given case?

I'm on record in this thread saying the punishment of this needs to be looked at.

And as Mise and I already mentioned, your not going to please everyone in trying to ensure that adults aren't having sex with minors. Will situations like this occur? Yes. Will the law also protect a lot of minors from being influenced for sex by adults? Yes.

You aren't going to have a perfect solution for every situation. But that is why the prosecutors office has leeway in such things as plea deals, etc.

 

[Ajidica]

Which is why they offered her a plea bargain. But again, sometimes young adults do hideously stupid things which result in a felony offense. This doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them accountable for those actions.

I think what FarmBoy is getting at is why in cases such as this should it be treated as a felony offence? The point of listing this as a felony offense is to deter those who would exploit and deceive those under 18. However, in this case, I am not aware of their relation ever having been exploitive or anything like that. The AoC laws for the most part work with a felony as deterrence but in cases of a pre-existing relationship the punishment needs to be toned down.
Unless, of course, you feel two teens in a pre-existing relationship should be punished on the same level as a jailbait fan. In which case, I don't see anything profitable coming out of this discussion.

 

[MobBoss]

I think what FarmBoy is getting at is why in cases such as this should it be treated as a felony offence? The point of listing this as a felony offense is to deter those who would exploit and deceive those under 18. However, in this case, I am not aware of their relation ever having been exploitive or anything like that. The AoC laws for the most part work with a felony as deterrence but in cases of a pre-existing relationship the punishment needs to be toned down.
Unless, of course, you feel two teens in a pre-existing relationship should be punished on the same level as a jailbait fan. In which case, I don't see anything profitable coming out of this discussion.

Any sexual relationship between an adult and non-consenting minor is by default exploitive (even if it is merely 18 on 15). Teens, especially younger teens, can be easily coerced by those older into having sex. That's exploitive.

And the Florida law specifically mentions that any pre-existing sexual activity by the victim is not to be considered.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm on record in this thread saying the punishment of this needs to be looked at.

And as Mise and I already mentioned, your not going to please everyone in trying to ensure that adults aren't having sex with minors. Will situations like this occur? Yes. Will the law also protect a lot of minors from being influenced for sex by adults? Yes.

You aren't going to have a perfect solution for every situation. But that is why the prosecutors office has leeway in such things as plea deals, etc.

I understand prosecutiorial discretion. If it's so great we could just make speeding a capital offense, or even just a 5-20 year sentence with optional offender registration and plea it down as appropriate.

What I'm more looking for is an addressing of the Illinois statutes I linked in. How is a law that is based on gradations and steps based around the age difference between the parties in the sexual relationship not preferable in a statutory rape law compared to one that massively jumps around like the Florida one where 6 years is ok here, 3 years and 1 day is send you to a sodomy-dungeon at a different point and oh maybe we wont if the prosecutor got laid last night and is in a good mood, etc?

 

[Crezth]

Any sexual relationship between an adult and non-consenting minor is by default exploitive (even if it is merely 18 on 15). Teens, especially younger teens, can be easily coerced by those older into having sex. That's exploitive.

And the Florida law specifically mentions that any pre-existing sexual activity by the victim is not to be considered.

I agree. I don't really see the confusion here. This is statutory rape and should be regarded as such. Just because this particular 18-15 relationship was fine doesn't hold water because the law has to do with age, not mitigating circumstances.

And if we complicate the law with loopholes and just-in-cases, then we go too far in the other direction and make the law powerless to help genuine cases of statutory rape, which is already really underreported.

 

[Bamspeedy]

You mean other than the one I graduated from, and every single one in the nearby area?

High schools with 9th graders are by far the exceptions instead of the rule in Florida and most other populated states these days, at least as far as I know. Given what occurred here, one of the reasons why should be quite obvious.

You graduated around 1970, though, and back then they were very common. I'm just wondering if they still are 3 year or if they switched just like California. I checked a bunch in St. Pete and Tampa and they are all 4 year.

 

[BvBPL]

@BvBPL - love is like everything else. We start out being bad at it. You get better at it by doing it. There are enough adults I would label as poorly skilled in the types of love you seem to value to use age as a sufficient metric to level against the capacity of high schoolers.

That's a good way of putting it: love as a skill that has to be learned. 18 year olds are legally expected to perform at the level of skill expected of a reasonable adult in most areas (driving, working, signing contracts, etc). Why should a seperate standard exist for affairs of the heart?

However, in this case, I am not aware of their relation ever having been exploitive or anything like that.

Whether or not the relationship was exploitative, it certainly wasn’t equal. Hunt was more experienced in terms of age and in terms of sexual activity. Hunt was also in a position of authority over her partner as they were both on the same basketball team. Those elements can contribute to an exploitive relationship. Whether or not that occurred here remains to be seen (and might well never become public). However, the potential for exploitive relationships exist under those circumstances and that’s one thing the law tries to protect against.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's a good way of putting it: love as a skill that has to be learned. 18 year olds are legally expected to perform at the level of skill expected of a reasonable adult in most areas (driving, working, signing contracts, etc). Why should a seperate standard exist for affairs of the heart?

Here's the trick though. You drive when you're 14 and it's illegal. Maybe you do it anyways. You turn 16 and it becomes legal. Everyone is expected to get more competent with age. Unfortunately when you have morons writing your statutory rape statutes this doesn't carry over. You have a 15 year old and a 17 year old. They're doing something we don't like, something we are worried about being unequal, something that might even be criminal to some degree. Every day they age they both get older, more adjusted, and closer to a relationship we consider fine. However, arbitrarily: something that is legally fine(or at least at a relatively low level of punishment) morphs into a high felony because of some slavish adherence to the concept of "bright line" enforcement. The day the older party turned 18 didn't change the unequal nature of the relationship. If anything, like every single other darn day, the relationship became closer to being widely considered what passes for healthy. If statutory guidelines are written such that a relationship can get more illegal than it was when it started then I have nothing but scorn for that statute and those that support it.

 

[Samson]

You mean other than the one I graduated from, and every single one in the nearby area?

Given what occurred here, one of the reasons why should be quite obvious.

You are saying that because of cases such as this, you should not let 15 year olds and 18 year olds go to the same school? That sounds pretty odd from here, where the norm is for schools to take from 11 to 18.

 

[aelf]

Oh, okay. See, I was confused cuz there was no reference of race anywhere in here. So not sure what point you're trying to make, but okay. Except, of course, you're injecting race into something that has nothing to do with race, helping make my point!

You seem to be having a hard time, so let me help. My first post didn't mention racism. The racism thing was from a previous thread. Given the wonderful logic you displayed there, I'm sure you could pull the same maneuver and accuse lefties of bigotry in this thread when homophobia was brought up as a relevant issue.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You graduated around 1970, though, and back then they were very common. I'm just wondering if they still are 3 year or if they switched just like California. I checked a bunch in St. Pete and Tampa and they are all 4 year.

Damn. They sure are including the one I graduated from. I guess downsizing due to the end of the baby boom has trumped basic common sense.

 

[BvBPL]

If statutory guidelines are written such that a relationship can get more illegal than it was when it started then I have nothing but scorn for that statute and those that support it.

That argument makes sense, but it wasn't the case here. First off, the relationship appears to have started after Hunt turned 18. Furthermore, even if it occured when Hunt was 17 it would have still been just as illegal. Punishment might have been different if it occured when Hunt was 17 based on the fact that she would have been a minor, but that's not a sure thing as the general trend is towards treating teenage offenders as adults in the courts.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Being in love does not give you a free pass to break the law and violate a minor.

What does 'violate' mean?

 

[Farm Boy]

That argument makes sense, but it wasn't the case here. First off, the relationship appears to have started after Hunt turned 18. Furthermore, even if it occured when Hunt was 17 it would have still been just as illegal. Punishment might have been different if it occured when Hunt was 17 based on the fact that she would have been a minor, but that's not a sure thing as the general trend is towards treating teenage offenders as adults in the courts.

Doesn't appear that way from the OP, is there additional info you could legwork for me out on this? :lazybum:

My criticism of Florida law stands independent of this specific case.

I'm 20 and I managed to not engage in sex despite the many opportunities.

I waited until I was married. I think people should do so more often and I think people rush into sex harmfully. Don't see how that directly applies here.

 

[civ_king]

It just shows that there needs to be a high level of pragmatism applied to the law.

It's all fine and well to sit here being 40 and tutting at a girl who didn't cease the relationship for a year. I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect the 18 year old to wait a year, which when you're 18 is a lifetime, to be with someone she loves, which when you're 18 is the love of your life.

But it's quite another to let this escalate to the point where a plea bargain of 2 years home arrest is the easy way out.

I'm 20 and I managed to not engage in sex despite the many opportunities.

But every single person who engages in a sexual act with someone under 16 is punishable under this clearly draconian nonsense you seem to have no problem with at all.

Why the obvious double standard? Shouldn't they all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law? What is so magically different about an 18-year-old high school student compared to a 17-year-old one?

Shouldn't every single 18-year-old high school student in the country be warned that this could happen to them if the parents of their supposed victim are prudes or homophobic?

The prosecutors can only prosecute the cases they know about.

They should also change the school systems so that there are no more 9th graders in high school. I am really shocked that there are still schools in Florida where this occurs. I thought they all changed long ago.

You are certainly "unrealistic" for even trying to insinuate that is what my statement meant.

Do all 18-year-old high school students know that their lives can be completely ruined and may be imprisoned for 15 years for having a sexual encounter with a 15-year-old sophomore or junior in their own high school? I seriously doubt it. Again, how are they even going to be able to properly ascertain it given that people that age typically do not have official photo IDs with verified ages?

And again, why shouldn't 16 and 17-year-olds be subjected to the same law? Why shouldn't 12-year-olds who engage in sexual activity also be prosecuted to the full extent of the law?

The prosecutors offered her two years of house arrest, restraining order until the younger girl is 18, no prison, name doesn't get put on the sex offenders list, that's not quite 15 years and be on the sex offender list.

You mean other than the one I graduated from, and every single one in the nearby area?

Given what occurred here, one of the reasons why should be quite obvious.

And other reasons are?

Damn. They sure are including the one I graduated from. I guess downsizing due to the end of the baby boom has trumped basic common sense.

What is so hideous about four year high schools? There was only one case at my high school of a Senior/freshman relationship.

What does 'violate' mean?

An 18 year old female penetrating the vagina of a 14 year old female with her fingers?

 

[NovaKart]

I didn't know there were still 3 year high schools, I thought they were all four year.

I'm curious civ king, you've really had so many opportunities to engage in sex?