Mueller finds more witches

Synsensa said:
Except not really. If Manafort was just some rando there would be no hullabaloo about any of this. It is extremely relevant that everyone surrounding Trump is dropping like a row of dominoes. Especially when he hires only the best people.
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Well, I agree with you, but strictly legally speaking the case against Manafort is only tangentially related to Trump, if that.
 
Meh. Trump was right. He could shoot someone in the street and nothing would happen.
 
Lexicus said:
Well, I agree with you, but strictly legally speaking the case against Manafort is only tangentially related to Trump, if that.
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I would amend this to "the charges that Manafort is currently facing and the charges that he has already been found guilty of are only tangentially related to Trump, however the case against Manafort is very likely to expand significantly in Trump's direction." There is no reason to think that Manafort, who it is now established had previously been employed by the Russians, was not serving their interests when he offered his services to Trump and "just happened" to get the opportunity to craft the most Russia friendly platform the GOP has produced in decades. Charges related to that have not yet been filed, but are a very likely outcome of "the case against Manafort," and that will reveal the case to be much more "Trump related" than it currently appears.
 
Commodore said:
You do know where the term "witch hunt" comes from right? It comes from the Salem Witch Trials, which if you'll remember, also resulted in convictions and also kept turning up witches. Are you going to sit there and tell me you think the Salem Witch Trials resulted in legitimate convictions? Are you also going to tell me you think those running those trials must have been on to something because they kept "turning up witches"?
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Ah...Trump started this round of "Witch Hunt" charges. finding witches is just a follow up to that.
Commodore said:
The point being that just because you are getting convictions, doesn't mean those convictions are legitimate. In fact, the fact that Manafort was only convicted on less than half of everything he was charged with should call this whole investigation into question because it shows they are trying to nail people for things they didn't do. They are just shotgun blasting with charges and hoping they can fool a jury into buying into some of them.
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Were you drunk when you posted this or do you just not understand how our legal system works at all? This was a jury trial and and 12 people agreed that Manafort was guilty of 8 illegal actions. Each of the 18 counts is independent of the other 17. If a person is charged and tried on kidnapping, rape and murder and the jury only finds him guilty of kidnapping and murder, the lack of a guilty verdict on the rape does not affect the kidnapping and murder convictions. And keep in mind, a hung jury on a charge does not mean the person didn't do it; it only means that the jury didn't think that the prosecutors met the burden of proof for a conviction. There was no acquittal.
 
Zkribbler said:
I don't know beans about criminal law but I believe accepting a pardon requires an admission of guilt.
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Zelig said:
I mean I don't get why "accepting" a pardon matters. You don't get to chose whether you "accept" a conviction.
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I don't really think this was a question, pre-Trump, and questions that only raise due to Trump's bizarre behavior don't merit a lot of debate and should never set any precedent. Specifically, until Trump opted to preemptively pardon Joe Arpaio there was no issue regarding admission of guilt, because only people who had been convicted got pardons and no one really cares whether someone who has been convicted admits guilt or not, they are treated as 'convicted' either way.
 
Zkribbler said:
I don't know beans about criminal law but I believe accepting a pardon requires an admission of guilt.
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Zelig said:
I mean I don't get why "accepting" a pardon matters. You don't get to chose whether you "accept" a conviction.
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Admitting guilt could open you up to civil liability, if you did something that resulted in some kind of injury to a private party.

Accepting a pardon could also have unexpected consequences for the pardoner. For example if I accept a pardon and am later called upon to testify under oath about the bad things I did, I may not be able to take the 5th since I can't be prosecuted for them. Even if answering the question incriminates whoever pardoned me.
 
duckstab said:
Admitting guilt could open you up to civil liability, if you did something that resulted in some kind of injury to a private party.

Accepting a pardon could also have unexpected consequences for the pardoner. For example if I accept a pardon and am later called upon to testify under oath about the bad things I did, I may not be able to take the 5th since I can't be prosecuted for them. Even if answering the question incriminates whoever pardoned me.
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This is why taking the fifth is always a bad idea; you are open to being given immunity and forced to answer. I knew a guy who took the fifth, not because he was terribly worried about self incrimination since he was caught dead to rights anyway, but because he was reasonably sure his associates would kill him if he testified. When in due time he got convicted he was then told that he would be granted immunity against any further charges and his cooperation would be considered in his sentencing. Since he could no longer claim concerns over self incrimination, when he wouldn't answer questions he was held in contempt for a while and then given an enhanced sentence.

Rule one: forget everything. "I don't recall exactly" is always the best answer.
 
Commodore said:
The point being that just because you are getting convictions, doesn't mean those convictions are legitimate. In fact, the fact that Manafort was only convicted on less than half of everything he was charged with should call this whole investigation into question because it shows they are trying to nail people for things they didn't do. They are just shotgun blasting with charges and hoping they can fool a jury into buying into some of them.
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Wait, what? Aren't you the guy who insists the only real arbiter of truth is a jury finding guilt beyond reasonable doubt, in a court of law? Now convictions might not be legitimate?

I'm not very surprised that you've simply tossed aside the sanctity of the legal process now that it proves to be inconvenient for you. But my lack of surprise doesn't make this post any less insane, the inconsistency any less stark or stunning. I mean - holy cow.
 
civvver said:
I don't think it has any relevance to trump since none of the charges are trump related.
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One part of what I suspect is happening is that Mueller is gradually building (and getting established as judicially determined facts) an overall story into which his charges of Trump will fit once he reveals those.

So, one thing that this first trial established was that Manafort was deeply indebted to Russian oligarchs. When you combine that with the fact that he offered to work on the campaign for free, then attempted to sell access to the President to Russians, you now have some plot details in a narrative. When Mueller later reveals (to create a hypothetical example) Trump taking some action not in the interests of the United States and in response that influence peddling, then the various elements of conspiracy against the American people fall together. All that would need to be established at that point is those last two facts because the rest is already officially in place.
 
Zelig said:
I mean I don't get why "accepting" a pardon matters. You don't get to chose whether you "accept" a conviction.
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It would matter greatly to someone who really, really likes prison food. :yumyum:

Spoiler :
...or who wants the free health care to which prisoners are entitled.
 
Archbob said:
You know what we do with Witches?
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monty-python.jpg


Burn baby burn... :clap:
 
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Synsensa said:
Meh. Trump was right. He could shoot someone in the street and nothing would happen.
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But the Deplorable are prepared to sacrifice themselves to the God Emperor ?
Trumps new tariffs are about to screw over the coal industry

And Trumps instincts are telling him to escalate the trade war.
 
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Commodore said:
The point being that just because you are getting convictions, doesn't mean those convictions are legitimate.
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Do you extend that reasoning to the crime statistics on black people?
Commodore said:
In fact, the fact that Manafort was only convicted on less than half of everything he was charged with should call this whole investigation into question because it shows they are trying to nail people for things they didn't do. They are just shotgun blasting with charges and hoping they can fool a jury into buying into some of them.
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When @Gori the Grey predicted that Team Trump would say exactly this, I chuckled, because it seemed like an Onion/SNL parody of something Trump would say... but no one would actual buy/believe, because of how preposterous it was... Its a little bit surreal to witness somebody actually believing it. Or maybe you're just kidding again?
 
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Also, we learned that the "hung jury" on the other 10 charges was 11-1 in favor of convicting. A single holdout.

Of course, Manafort can be tried again on those charges. He even has another trial coming up on different charges! It's a shame none of it is legitimate :(
 
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