Nationalized Healthcare? Not In My Back Yard!

[Masquerouge]

Because none of them prove a link between our type of system and lower life expectancy.

Well, fine, then. Just keep believing that private healthcare is less expensive and that the US has the best health system in the world, apparently it's working great!

 

[JohnRM]

but at least they are some indicator on the quality of health in a given country. you, so far, have utterly failed to provide and proof or even indicators that the US health care is so much better than everybody else's

I don't believe that I've ever said our system is necessarily better, only that you stand a much better chance of surviving serious illness, which is documented, but I thus far have been unable to remember where I read it.

 

[Elta]

Well, fine, then. Just keep believing that private healthcare is less expensive and that the US has the best health system in the world, apparently it's working great!

As they say in France possédé + one more if you get it.

 

[Masquerouge]

I don't believe that I've ever said our system is necessarily better,

Yes. Yes you did.

Less quality usually translates to lower costs.

You WILL NOT receive prompt and quality care, because the resources simply won't be there. That 12 hours that you complained about waiting for a Doctor and Nurse to examine and cast up your broken leg is now going to take much longer and the follow-up care is going to be almost non-existent. When you get cancer, your survival rate will drop like a rock, as the statistics in Europe show. Why? Because, like in the UK, they don't do certain pre-screening tests, like tests for Prostate Cancer? Why not? It isn't cost effective. Only a small percentage of tests come back positive. It is more cost effective to let people come to them with symptoms.

Choosing your doctor? Forget about it. Your appointment is inconvenient for you? You need to reschedule? Yeah, okay, they have another appointment in about four months. You'll feel better by then, I assure you, either cause you're dead or recovered. Either way, works for them.

So, who wants to be the first to line up for this?

only that you stand a much better chance of surviving serious illness, which is documented, but I thus far have been unable to remember where I read it.

Well that's too bad now, isn't it?

 

[Heffalump]

As someone who' spent a lot of time both in America and Europe my own experiences are as follows:

- for the best day to day general practice care the European systems are more efficient and and cost effective than in the US. Your average citizen is better off with the European model most of the time.

- that said, if I needed something reaaaaaaly serious (like a transplant or open heart surgery) then I'd rather be in the US. Technology is usually a few years ahead and "waiting lists" are unknown. (This is of course assuming I was well insured, since the average citizen could never affort such a thing himself....)

 

[Masquerouge]

As someone who' spent a lot of time both in America and Europe my own experiences are as follows:

- for the best day to day general practice care the European systems are more efficient and and cost effective than in the US. Your average citizen is better off with the European model most of the time.

- that said, if I needed something reaaaaaaly serious (like a transplant or open heart surgery) then I'd rather be in the US. Technology is usually a few years ahead and "waiting lists" are unknown. (This is of course assuming I was well insured, since the average citizen could never affort such a thing himself....)

I agree. That's my experience too

 

[amadeus]

lol, can I quote you on this when you wonder aloud why Cuba's life expectancy is marginally less than the US?

I don't wonder aloud about it; do you really think I trust statistics originating from communist Cuba?

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Well, some of the Americans in this thread are right about the fact that the health care system itself doesn't explain all of the results. I would argue that we would also have to bring to bear the entire built form of the United States and its inefficiency at providing healthy lives for its citizens. There are many things about the US that are horribly wrong that seem to compound a terrible all-round health care system, which is layered with useless private bureaucracies.

Anyone else wonder why NYC has a higher life expectancy than the national average?

 

[Jondalar]

I can see the pros and cons of nationalized health care. The cons are pretty well laid out - higher taxes, not wanting to contribute to care for those who'd rather not take of themselves, etc. Plus, in my opinion, nationalized health care doesn't encourage good doctors - they don't have the incentive of money for their discoveries.

On the other hand, not having nationalized health care discourages people from going to the doctor. Take me for instance - I've very healthy, but I don't have a lot of money, and I live in a very expensive area (DC). I hurt my shoulder playing hockey 6 years ago, but did not go to the hospital (as I knew the bills would be very high). 5 years later, when I finally had money saved up to get it checked out, I went. Had I gone immediately, I would have had to pay a bunch, and my rates likely would have gone up. So, paying for healthcare has another unintended effect: it encourages people NOT to go seek help for medical problems.

 

[MjM]

I was talking to someone the other night about nationalized healthcare in the United States and he/she was kind enough to remind me how much of an evil, greedy republican that I am and how I constantly go on about druggies, smokers, and fat people, but ignore those healthy, average citizens and focus on that minority that don't take care of themselves. I am apparently such a jerk cause I will doom the overwhelming majority of Americans who do take care of themselves for the sake of a small minority who do not.

Yea! Right!

I'm hurt John! I don't even get named?

 

[.Shane.]

I think I see yet another chance for America to innovate. It used to be our knack to take something an improve on it.

Why not take the best that national health care has to offer (routine care) and the best the private sector can do and merge them? The answer does not have to be all of one or all of the other.

Additionally, I think that in this debate that many corporations in the US would favor some kind of nationalized system because hashing out medical care as a benefit and its costs is a massive headache exercise.

 

[JollyRoger]

As a lawyer, I like the U.S. healthcare system just the way it is. Doctors and insurance companies are much easier to sue than the government.

 

[GinandTonic]

Masque you are my new hero.

They havnt answered any of your evidence with anything more than idealogical drum-banging.

Bottom line - the US has by some margin the most expensive healthcare on earth, as a total cost, as a per capita cost, as a %gdp, any way you want to look at it. For this money it gets a health care system rated in the mid 30's worldwide. Why Americans are happy to persist with the outragous costs of such a system is beyond me.

All the people claiming the US system is wonderful please show us some indicators that place it as anything better than "6/10 for effort". Evidence please gentlemen.

 

[GinandTonic]

As a lawyer, I like the U.S. healthcare system just the way it is. Doctors and insurance companies are much easier to sue than the government.

There is a serious point in this. If someone sues the NHS the public perception is of them snatching money from a Florence Nightingale nurse. It happens but unless something grotesque has happened the public sympathy (indeed the juries sympathies) are with the NHS over some grubby little ambulance chaser.

 

[Elta]

I don't wonder aloud about it; do you really think I trust statistics originating from communist Cuba?

IIRC most of the stats are from the WHO

 

[WillJ]

Is it just me, or is Masque's rebuttal to John's arguments rather Rastrellian?

 

[Masquerouge]

Is it just me, or is Masque's rebuttal to John's arguments rather RASTRELLIAN?

I'm pretty sure I would have an opinion of that if I knew what it meant

 

[Hitti-Litti]

You don't know what Rastrelli is?

Man, you're so old-fashioned.

 

[GinandTonic]

Im guessing we arent talking about the style of the late-baroque archetect?

 

[Pokurcz]

It is seemingly difficult to face hard facts when they refute deeply set ideological brainwashing, I mean the next step after free health care is Communism, right!!?